Theism vs Evolution II

Has anyone actually taken the time to see what folk are actually saying from the god side? It seems mostly Christian. And the likes of Jacob M above are certainly immune to actual facts. (Otherwise, his assertion he could deal with the details of biology would have actually included biology, and not tripe he got from AiG or his preatcher man. Maybe he’d have even evidenced that he’d read the destruction of the thermodynamic crap that evinced him as ignorant of the facts.)

First, there has been NO discussion of even where the god idea came from. Why is this? It seems to me that it would be central to any discussion along this line. Note, too, that there is some data which indicate it may be a trait that has been selected FOR in H. sapiens. If true we have evolved to have this very argument.

Second, let’s look at just what we have regarding divinity. Lots of ideas. Hoards of religions. Many conflicting mores and morals. Interestingly, these seem to be geographicly isolated. In short, if you you grow up in Rome, it is very unlikely that you will be Shinto. I doubt that anyone speaking Swahili (sp?) from birth would have a religious experience considering where green ants dream. Great White Father just isn’t found in Nirobi.

So, what does this diversity tell us? Humans are a smart animal. We do find things out, We do compare notes. And, strangely enough, we do converge on things we find in our world. We know things fall down. We agree on the perceived color of reflected light. We agree on what is crazy behavior (really, we do, psychiatric anthropoligists have actually looked at this). We know what will kill us, what will feed us, what will intoxicate us, what will warm and chill us. We know and agree on the cycles of day, season, even year. Most of us can actually agree on number (probably all, but the linguistics limit it). These things are real.

Gods? Religious behavior? Well, is there really any convergence? I’d say no. As such, god is an internal concept and does not exist outside of our imagination. If and when real convergence on god(s) occurs, then, perhaps, humans have found something in there environment.

We also know how religions are formed. We have historical examples. Mohammed, who had a ‘revelation’ that one should marry one’s brother’s wife on death – because he wanted to! Joseph Smith: Golde plates and polygamy (need I say more? OK – read ‘Under the Banner of Heaven’ – be amazed). L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. Examining these leaves little doubt that religions are founded by mortals with more than a little political (self, group) interest. The bible is too old to see this explicitly in the old testament, and as for the new there are serious doubts as the the very existence of one messiah named Jesus amidst a group of messiahim (pl?).

But still, folk rest on Genesis. Argue it (wait, only the English, I am told the Hebrew is more than a little different being more spiritual) as fact, move that to science, and remain confused, ignorant, trapped in their beliefs. I do not see this as a good thing at all. Killing smartalek kids is immoral, though biblical.

What, then, is the basic argument of folk like Jacob M? I can sum it up in maybe two sentences.

The people of the bronze age of human kind, writing down, perhaps imperfectly, tales from their and others’ civilizations from the neolithic age, knew more about biology, life, planetary geology and the arrangements of our sun’s planets and moons than the scientists of the 21st century. They knew all this even though there is a distinct lack of any writings defining and explicating the water cycle – even though water was and is one of the most important resources then, now, and likely forever for this species.

This is the assumption based solely on what we actually have in front of us, sans any discussed god(s). I find it highly unlikely that the knowledge base of neolithic and bronze aged folk exceeded ours. YMMV, but please, demonstrate where their factual information exceeded ours.

I’m just sending this up. It is a bit long. I’d rather another beer (and yes, they knew how to make that!) than edit it.

Martin,

You have to quote my full sentence. My position has always been:

“If god(s) exists then evolution is almost certainly false, if not in every particular then surely in the grand claims of a undesigned nature.”

Hence my agreement with Cole – see above.

In other words if God exists then there is no special reason to doubt that the earth is 4 billion years old but I think there would be good reason to doubt that Mozart, Einstein, Darwin and mankind in general were purely the products of random mutation and natural selection.

In other words, since theists believe that God exists one cannot logically begrudge them the conclusion that we are not the pure products of random mutuation and natural selection without attacking the premise.

Best

Alex Tabarrok

Hm. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Alex’s comment:
“If god(s) exists then evolution is almost certainly false, if not in every particular then surely in the grand claims of a undesigned nature.”
is using a much broader definition of evolution and its implications than we typically use, and some stricter (more philosophical?) definitions of true and false.

If evolution included the origins of the universe, the formation of planets, and abiogenesis, and if this God stated that he created the universe through some means other than the prevailing big bang theory, then yes, evolution would technically be false in that not all of its many parts was 100% accurate. But evolution itself is the biological processes that have occurred after biogenesis (abio or not), not the rest of this stuff. Further, biologists don’t claim current evolutionary theory to be 100% correct. If it ever were, there would be no more research to be done.

I think it’s pointless to say that the proven existence of God would falsify the grandest claims of evolution about an undesigned Nature because: 1. It doesn’t MAKE such grand claims, it is confined to biology, 2. If the God explains he has “nudged” evolution in undetectable ways I would consider that a far cry from falsifying it, and 3. I still don’t see God’s appearance changing anything about the nature of the universe. Regarding this last part, I think you may be saying that God, by necessity, would be the creator of the Universe, and that therefore by necessity the Universe is at least indirectly, partially designed. I don’t feel qualified to debate that point.

But again, even so, to me you are saying “If God shows up and says: ‘Hi everybody! Yup, I’m God, and I did make the universe!’ Then Einstein was probably divinely planned.” I’m saying that’s not enough, not remotely. We need some specific evidence about how he created the universe, what influences he’s exerted, before we can start drawing conclusions such as yours.

Maybe this is just arguing details…maybe you’re making more assumptions about what God’s presence confirms than I am. And I would think such quibbles would be pointless because he’d be answering those questions rapid-fire (presumably), so we’d know in short order. But if this is a more fundamental philosophical question about what the fact of God, and that fact alone, implies about evolution, I still think the answer is nothing. Additional, related facts, confirmed by him, are necessary.

Isn’t it obvious? Lancelot’s point is that we can only consider the possibility of God once we accept the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Which is rather odd, since

“What He did to prove that He was God was to deliver the most sublime teachings ever spoken, teachings that transformed the lives of his disciples, and then went on to transform whole civilizations; those teachings enabled mankind to transcend the dry cycles of rise-and-decline that characterized the ancient world”.

is as compatible with the beliefs of Islam as Catholicism.

I get the last comment? Not very believable. Apparently everyone lost interest before me. Oh well.

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