Beethoven died from lead poisoning

Have you read Murray’s “Human Accomplishment”?
It’s the closest thing we have to a formal ranking
Beethoven
Motzart
Bach
Wagner

I’d slightly doubt the “wine from lead cups” idea. Also their thought of lead leaching from lead glasses.

Much more likely is pewter, tin mixed (at that time) with a little lead. Often used for drinking cups and plates and other table ware. However, in contact with anything reasonably acidic the lead can leach. Wine and beer generally not but sauerkraut (?spelling?) is known to cause such leaching.

In the part of the world I come from (Somerset) you can tell if you’re walking into a beer pub or a cider pub by the tankards on display. If they’re pewter then it’s a beer pub, if pottery/porcelain then a cider one for the cider will leach the lead out of the pewter.

and that is your metals geek factoid for the day

I rank Bach number one, and will refuse to consider seriously any ranking that does not place him in the top three. . .

I’d add Buxtehude to the list–Bach idolized the guy and I understand why. Haydn is underrated; he should be programmed a LOT more in lieu of all of the so-so renditions of Mozart’s 40th symphony and opera overtures. Handel is interesting. I’m sick of Vivaldi.

So do you have any reasons for these (seemingly) arbitrary rankings or are you just putting them in the order that your music history textbooks tell you to?

What is this, Mitteleuropadopaland? Verdi, Tchaikovsky, Rossini, Mussorgsky, Debussy, Sibelius, Puccini, Ravel…

“Beethoven, IMO, single-handedly transformed two of my favorite forms, the symphony and the string quartet. Based on that, he is without peer.”

Well, Haydn basically invented both of them, so…

Beethoven’s symphonies are of course brilliant, but I have never felt them to be works of unmatched genius. Aside from his stab at opera–and I enjoy the second half of Fidelio quite a bit–Beethoven was not much of a success at “narrative” music; see Wellington’s Victory. Or at matching words with music (or composing for the voice at all!); see the Ode to Joy. I can understand someone rating Wagner more highly if she thought these aspects of music were extremely important.

However, Beethoven’s sublime–not an adjective I use lightly–late quartets and piano sonatas are, for me, matched only by the best work of Bach.

Some people are putting Haydn forward on the basis of his innovativeness.
If that is a criterion, well, Beethoven gets points on that one as does
Wagner. But a neglected figur would be Arcangelo Corelli, who basically
invented the baroque. Without him, the angels would not be playing
Bach for God. And Stravinsky and Schoenberg are way up there also,
although I much prefer Stravinsky to Schoenberg. Stravinsky seems to
have fallen a bit in stature in recent years, getting kind of passe, but
his full opus remains probably the best of the 20th century, quite aside
from the shocking innovativeness of the premiere of Le Sacre in 1913.

This is an interesting thread. My husband and I are both classical pianists (he plays professionally) and we often have these kinds of discussions. I think ranking composers in any really arguably definitive way has to define some sort of criteria–since none of them accomplished what they did for the purpose of winning some cosmic Greatest Composer of All Time competition, they all stand out for individual reasons that don’t necessarily compare fairly one to another. For example….in opera music, I agree there are strong arguments for Wagner–but on the overall “composer” front, I think it would be difficult to place him very highly simply because his focus from a genre perspective was quite limited when compared to composers like Mozart/Beethoven/Bach. In fact, I believe Wagner really wanted to be a playright, and found musicial composition in opera at least initially just a mechanism to bring himself closer to that goal. He wrote very little outside of that genre, whereas most of the other great composers had much broader compositional strengths. Then, with Mozart, you have significant evidence of his brilliance in operatic writing, whereas Beethoven for all his genius, certainly is not known for opera. Personally, when I listen or play Mozart piano music (and I’m JUST talking about his piano music, before anyone jumps on me), particularly the sonatas, I just don’t understand how anyone could feel they stand up well against Beethoven’s sonatas. They are very pleasant, but as compared to the structures in Beethoven’s piano works, they just don’t compare–and dare I type this–I think they are shallow in comparison, really. I had a theory a while ago that what I found uninteresting in Mozart’s piano sonatas may have simply been a factor of maturity; I thought most likely, he wrote things like K545 when he was young, which would explain it being so structurally predictable….but that theory doesn’t hold up, as he wrote many of his solo works including that sonata later in his life. So….I have no excuse for him in that context. One could argue that Mozart’s piano works were composed at an earlier time than Beethoven, with different conventions of the day predominating, making the comparison unfair….but then, how would one explain Bach’s piano works, which were earlier than both and do not suffer in my opinion from that sort of pedestrian quality. (Not to mention the argument that what Beethoven did with the Sonata form in general is one of his hallmark achievements). Personally, I think if a general criteria can be established by which all composers could be measured fairly–I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to overcome Beethoven no matter what that criteria is, considering the quantity and quality of what he wrote, that it certainly at a minimum is comparable to any other great composer, but in his case, the bulk of that great work was written when he was losing his hearing or completely deaf. I mean, c’mon, there have to be serious points for THAT.

Pretty nice site, wants to see much more on it! b

Found your site in google, and it has a lot of usefull information. Thanx.M

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