One loyal MR reader has a 51-year-old friend who wishes to marry a younger [addendum: one source, who knows the man, says she need not be young...] foreign woman, possibly with a child. Yet he fears golddiggers. She seeks vicarious advice for him…
The economics of marrying a foreign woman
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It is assumed that the woman must be from a country which is much poorer than USA, right? How about finding a beatiful and wealthy Swiss, Japanese or Luxembourgois wife?
More concrete advice: be very careful with women from Central Europe with university degree in economics. No joke – they come from relatively modest backgrounds, while yearning for better standards of living and knowing how to get it (much too often by fooling wealthier males). No kidding. Tested and verified.
The idea of “a reliable third party certifier” sounds good if you can really find one. But how reliable is Uncle Sam? Do you really believe la migra is all that successful at screening out the untrustworthy? And other supposedly reliable certifiers may be in cahoots with the potential bride.
Having said that, after I met my wife, I also met some of her friends and family. In fact, the idea of marrying someone you hardly know strikes me as foolhardy. I knew my foreign wife six months before I married her. Speaking her language helped. Oh, and I warned her I’d never be rich. We knew that we shared at least some values.
That was back when spam was still little more than a tired Monty Python sketch, and the gamble has paid off. Still not rich, though.
Well, even if he is a creep, I imagine there are quite a few people in this world who would feel that
their own life and that of their children and or family might be improved by marrying a foreign creep and
there could also be beneficial externalities to people in the creep’s country if he gets married. It’s
unfortunate, but for some people marrying a foreign creep could be a life saving event.
“She should have plow experience.”
- Borat
I don’t think that inability to communicate or going through youth without the ability to communicate
makes you a creep. I think it makes you someone with an inability to communicate and someone who went
through youth without the ability to form attachments. I understand that there are many groups in the
world today who think it is good for young people to not form communicate with or form attachments
with the opposite sex because of supernatural reasons, so I’m not terribly surprised if there are many
people in there fifties who find their skills in these areas stunted.
I like Central European women (don’t know if you’re including them in “lost the Cold War” … in many ways they won more than anyone from the end of it). But it helps that I know the culture and speak one of the languages.
Golddiggers are not unique to other parts of the world. The way you avoid them there is the same as avoiding them here: don’t go for flashy women who wear tons of makeup and don’t have any plans of their own beyond you.
From a ‘marriage market’ perspective, it would seem to me that the problem is that at the start, this 51-year-old bachelor has a great deal of value in the market (representing a ticket to the U.S.) but it is unavoidable that that value will decline (once she has permanent legal resident status in the U.S. and no longer depends on his sponsorship and also when a divorce would result in a division of property). Similarly, any foreign bride starts out with diminished value but that value will increase (when she gains resident status, gainful employment, English skills, and claims on marital property).
Given that, what should he do? I would say that he needs to think about not pressing his current advantage as far as possible but rather finding a woman who is more likely to want to stay with him when that inevitable ‘marriage market value’ shift occurs. The most obvious thing he should do is to look for a woman who is much nearer his own age rather than one much younger.
So the “foreign woman” bit probably is an artifice to avoid admitting bachelorhood is his preferred long-run equilibrium.
I think it more likely that he wants to marry a foreign woman because his relative wealth and citizenship status will compensate for his advanced age. He will therefore be able to attract a younger, more beautiful wife than he could in the states, where his citizenship status confers no particular benefit, and his wealth doesn’t confer a great advantage (as the women in the U.S. can easily earn enough to support themselves comfortably.)
If he is counting on his wealth, and citizenship status to confer an advantage, then it would seem that he would want a woman who wants him, at least in part, for his money (or access to money). If he’s not counting on his wealth and citizenship status, then why does he want to marry a foreign woman? What characteristics of foreign women does he prefer over native women?
He should avoid countries which lost the Cold War.
Why? Women seeking to leave ex-Communist states may be less likely to have illusions about the virtues of socialism (unlike U.S. women, who’ve never lived through it). They may also be less materialistic and more appreciative of the wealth that is available in the U.S.( unlike U.S. natives who have become habituated to it.)
Avoid women met in hotels or hotel rooms.
It depends on why they are at the hotel. If they’re prostitutes, then of course, the usual downsides of dating prostitutes apply. But if they’re there for a scientific or business conference, then why not?
Avoid countries which generate large amounts of spam.
The U.S. is the largest generator of spam.
Hepatitis counts as a minus.
Yes, it’s a minus, but how does that help him avoid gold diggers?
How about a plus for women who work in agriculture?
I could see farm women being more pragmatic, less materialistic, hardworking, blunt. But they might also be less mannered, less intellectual. It depends on the woman, and what you value.
If he’s seeking someone who will be affectionate, kind, loyal, hardworking, smart, responsible, then I think he will have to do what he would do if he were looking for a good wife in the states. Spend time getting to know her and her family. Take trips together. Observe how she treats other people, especially those serving her (maids, waiters, etc.) How does she spend her money? Does she pressure you to buy gifts, expensive trips? What does she like to do? Is she easygoing? Does she like many of the same things you do? What are her goals?
If he does those things, odds are, most women only interested in him for his money will exclude themselves.
A piece of advice I gave to one such hubby-wannabe who was considering bringing his “girlfriend” over to the States: Ask her to purchase the ticket where she is, and send way too much money. (Like an extra $1000 over and above the expected cost of the ticket.)
If she absconds with your extra money, consider it a very cheap lesson — you acquired the information at a very early stage, and avoided a much more serious loss later on. The value of engineering an opportunity to signal her type: priceless.
P.S. They are now happily married.
Make sure she realizes your true financial worth (lack of it). I had a friend who married a asian women while an expatriot. The guy made around $30,000/year yet when asked how much she thinks his salary is, she said “$600,000″. She got all her information on Americans from Soup Operas.
Hey! Y’all are making some pretty nasty assumptions about my friend here.
He is *not* a creep, he’s just unskilled at attracting and dating women. That plus having worked long hours to the detriment of his social life for many years is why he is unmarried. Yes, he should have made his personal life a higher priority if he wanted to be married and have kids by now, but he realizes his error and is trying to reform.
Also, it wasn’t his idea to seek a foreign bride, it was my suggestion to him based on his lack of luck with women in the US. From what I’ve read, and heard from men who have married women in or from other countries, is that women in other parts of the world prioritize different qualities in the men they’re looking for. Many of them come from cultures where the men are very sexist, abusive, cheat on them, and are irresponsible about taking care of their families, and they’ve heard that American men generally treat their wives better than men in their home countries do. These women would be thrilled to find a nice man who treats them well and makes enough for a middle class standard of living. Whereas American women expect that as the minimum and also want men who are rich, handsome, suave, powerful, etc.
He’s *not* interested in marrying a signficantly younger women, nor is he just looking for an obedient maid who puts out. He’s looking for an intelligent, educated, professional woman, preferably a single mom seeking a good father for her children since he’s a little old to start making new kids from scratch.
His concern about golddiggers comes from his one prior experience writing to Russian women. After a couple of emails exchanged they started asking him to send them money. He’s also worried about marrying a woman who only pretends to love him long enough to get a green card, then leaves him.
The reason I asked Tyler for advice is because Tyler mentioned once that he thinks people who are a little weird do better with foreign spouses because there’s some ambiguity whether the weirdness the spouse perceives is cultural difference or because the person is just weird. My friend is a moderately weird economics professor too, so I thought he might find it easier to date foreign women who are already going to assume he’s weird and not hold that against him so much.
Meanwhile I’m also trying to help him out with stuff that will increase his attractiveness to local women (and women in general) like, oh god, his fashion sense.
So, if y’all have some *helpful* advice for my friend and not just declarations of his creepdom we’d love to hear it. I sincerely think he’d make a good husband and father, unfortunately the skill set to be a good husband and father is different than the skill set required to attract a wife in the first place.
Hmmmm. He wants a wife but specifically a young, foreign wife. Why foreign? Because he is not appealing enough to attract a young, American wife? Well, if that’s the case then consider:
1) He’ll probably be, on average, equally appealing to foreign women on all axes EXCEPT wealth, where he may be more appealing to poor foreign women.
2) Given #1, it seems that the group of foreign women that he is likely selecting for is that of golddiggers, i.e. those who value his relative wealth more strongly than other women (other young, foreign women will be interested in him just as much as young American women)
A Tykhyy, the only difference is that Ukraine is stressed on the second syllable, whereas all the other countries that you mentioned stress their names on the first syllable.
The only countries I can think of off the top of my head that stress their names on the second syllable are Japan and Brazil (I’m sure more would come to mind, but I think 80-90% of country names have first syllable stress).
Although I agree that there’s no reason to say “the” Ukraine, the different stress pattern might be a reason that it’s easier for the article to stick.
This may be horribly inefficient, but I would suggest travelling to foreign countries and mixing with locals. Use his professorship to present at conferences–or better yet, get a visiting professorship–at an English-speaking college or one that will have high fluency (e.g., Scandinavian countries). Meeting them on their turf and possibly for an extended period will help on the gold digging aspect; it will also throw him out of his personal ruts accumulated in the States, stirring up the waters and forcing him to adapt and develop different strategies. And if this fails, when he comes back to the States, he has something interesting or useful to talk about with American women. All of that and he gets his travel subsidized by work.
I don’t have any personal experience with the rest of the world but I’ve lived in a Latin American country myself and most of the men there really are pigs. Domestic violence was rampant, it was assumed that your husband would cheat on you so you should just resign yourself to that fact, it was very difficult to find anyone who would behave responsibly (some of the latter being cultural differences about what “soon” and “yes” mean), etc. American men who were only middle class by that country’s standards, and who planned to stay in that country with their new wives, were still extremely popular as husbands because of the way they treated women, not because they were “rich”.
As a happily married “K1 husband” of seven years to a wonderful woman from China, I asked her about this question. She flipped the question around: what would be her advice for women from China or other countries who are looking at marrying American men?
Her response:
1. Similar class background. She’s from an “intellectual family” – her father is a professor, her mom was a high school teacher, and her older sister is a dean at a famous university. She was the “black sheep”, going into business. Her background is frankly more “intellectual” than mine – my family being mostly white-collar engineers in defense companies – but we are close enough to be “compatible” as families. Family compatibility matters enormously – in China, a marriage is between families, not just individuals, and it’s my impression that this is true in most countries.
2. When she was on the meetup site, she figured out that there were three general types of responses:
o Shy, geeky intellectuals – like me
This is the type she preferred.
o Older men who had lost their wives and who wanted to remarry. This would have been OK, but this wasn’t what she was looking for.
o Older men who wanted a home-servant and sex slave. Yuck.
Apparently, it was quite clear what type the guy was from email.
3. She wouldn’t advise anyone to do this who didn’t speak and write enough English to at least have meaningful email dialogs.
4. She would advise women to avoid men from small towns or rural areas; if the relationship doesn’t work out, it’s much harder to escape. Also, there will not be much of a support network in these areas.
5. If the woman can possibly do so, she should learn to drive before coming to the US. If she can’t, she should insist on learning to drive as soon as she gets off the plane. If the husband has issues with this, she should get back on the plane and head home. My wife already knew how to drive in China and got her license about a month after getting here; she got her learner’s permit as soon as she had the documents needed to get it.
6. The age difference shouldn’t be more than ten years or so.
Our situation is somewhat different from most since I had already lived in China, knew a fair amount about the place, and can speak some Chinese. Also, if anything, her lifestyle was, if anything, richer than mine, although if you convert her salary to USD it didn’t look like much. She had a company apartment, car, and clothing allowance, and most meals were paid for by her company.
The “the” before “Ukraine” was dropped around the time it gained its independence from the disintegrating Soviet Union.
I do not have advice for this guy as I met my Russian economist wife on my own. Still married to her.
The comments suggesting that this man was a creep because he lacked the nicities that attract women just made my blood boil. They could have been talking about my husband. I looked long and hard for a nerd like him. And luckily (for me) my husband is the kind of guy that most women don’t give a second look. Their loss. My gain, my love, all mine.
Just as a curious side point, is there anything in terms of research or even anecodotal evidence on non-whites in the US marrying foreign women thru similar means? I know plenty of African-American and Hispanic males who have similar views about American women with their white counterparts, yet you never hear any stories about them going overseas (in Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia) to look for women.
Clearly I wasn’t trying to univerisalize the use of the article ‘the’ but as the person below your second comment pointed out, it does flow better to the ear.
Le France sounds good too. And judging by your sign name you are Ukrainian, tak ya skazhu tebe, xvatit! Ya shutuyu s toboi.
I apologize for my last post in which I made assumptions I shouldn’t have.
I would like to make a few points that I’ve learned from growing up in three very different cultures and dating/marrying outside my native culture.
1. People without good dating skills in their native culture should realize they will be at *more* of a disadvantage in another culture where the expectations and underlying assumptions of the partner are even less understood than if dealing with one’s native culture. The original extra points you get as a foreigner with some people won’t help much after the relationship gets serious.
Therefore, I’d suggest that he be at least conversationally fluent in the language of the area he is looking, and preferably live there at least a couple of years. And the woman needs to be conversationally fluent in English as well.
2.
Make sure the girl has lived in the west (lived, not just visited) before. Otherwise, it’s difficult to predict how she will react to the move when the reality of leaving her own culture sinks in. This is also a very good way of eliminating gold-diggers, as such people probably aren’t after money.
I agree with many of the other points above, and 10 years is probably the upper limit for age different.
“He should go to India but not even try to meet Indian women. He should try to meet Indian parents. Yes he may be given the worst daughter but at least he gets someone who is still part of her family.”
Are you proposing an arranged marriage where your friend meets his honey on the day of wedding?
Very progressive of you, professor.
Besides, how often Indian women marry men not of their caste, much less foreigners? Almost never.
I knew dozens and dozens of couples where wife was chinese (imported or met while student in the US) and husband american. I never once met a couple where one partner was indian and another was not.
Anecdotal evidence of course, but I will bet for your friend searching for bride in India will be as productive as looking for ice in Sahara.
My qualifications for commenting:
Male, single, straight, age 48, lived in 14 countries, educated in US/Europe, visited/worked in over 100 countries. Have dated women from many cultures, several of which involved women (quite formally) proposing marriage. Never sought out foreign women for marriage under any kind of service arrangement.
Comments:
1) There is absolutely no reason to seek out foreign women if one simply desires to marry. There are plenty of American women who fit the bill and the best plan would be to just forget the whole foreign woman thing and find someone in your own town.
2) Men who seek foreign wives DO tend to be less skilled at dating, but there are an equal number of women who are similarly disabled. Find them at home. Believe me, I have… without even trying!
3) Goldiggers DO tend to be more plentiful in countries with lower GDPs. Quite understandable. Expect the numbers to increase as GDP declines.
4) Local cultures vary and DO matter, so the assumption that the same rules of engagement can possibly be the same in all countries outside the US is silly. If the man is so naive as to think he would be equally happy with a woman from any culture, see #1.
5) In my experience, women from first world countries are often as attracted to the notion of living in the US as women from second or third world countries. Why go to a low GDP country and wade through a crowd of goldiggers when you can meet a nice, honest lady in a pub in London? If the assumption is that your chances will diminish as the wealth of the local economy increases, then recognize that you probably ARE a “creep”.
As an American woman who lived abroad for many years and ended up marrying a foreign man I concur with Jake on all points.
Nice, somewhat nerdy men without a lot of dating experience shouldn’t have any trouble attracting equally nice, nerdy women of about their age. It does take some persistance– my sister spent quite a few years meeting men– and having some bad experiences– through on-line dating services before she finally met her husband. She got a good one, though– my brother-in-law is a peach!
Even speaking the language and knowing the culture it took me 4 years in the Czech Republic– and a fair amount of experience of male gold-diggers– before I met my husband. Our ‘third party certifier’ was a mutual friend we’d both known for many years.
I certainly wouldn’t advise looking abroad in a country whose culture you don’t understand and whose language you don’t speak if you’re looking for someone you can talk to! Even knowing the language, it takes years to get to the point where you have much of a clue what’s really going on.
One obvious point to make is that preferences vary a lot among countries. Sure, the professor in question could find a mildly geeky, thirty- or forty-something woman in the U.S. but abroad he could very well find someone faster who is more attractive or maybe not so geeky. Fair is fair. Just like cherry coke sells in some countries better than others, slightly geeky middle-aged men could do better for themselves looking for a woman abroad.
The usual precautions apply about watching out for gold-diggers and such. It’s best to stick to middle-class urban women as even in developing countries the cultural barrier will not be as high as one might think. Middle-class people in developing countries do not have such miserable lives, as some seem to assume, that relocating to, say, suburban Minneapolis represents moving to the promised land. Gold-digging will be less of a problem among middle-class people. Parents or women who ask for money too quickly are almost certainly gold-digging as in many cultures asking for money means a loss of status which middle-class people have worked hard to achieve. In South Asia and the Philipines, middle-class people tend to speak excellent English, so that’s another plus.
Of course, Indian women from educated backgrounds can and do date foreign men without the caste hang-ups prevelant among many people in the country. There just aren’t a whole lot of foreign men to choose from in India. Indian men dating foreign women is more accepted than foreign men dating Indian women but such couples certainly do exist (during my time in India I had no problem dating urban women). As in all cases, marriage requires some convincing but that’s life. Parents who are too eager for you to marry their daughter may look on you as a cash-cow anyway (see above).
Even a shy middle aged nerd can find a good wife in the US? Sure, and people DO sometimes win the lottery, too. But that doesn’t make it a good bet.
By going overseas you can improve your odds, if you’re careful, by virtue of comparative advantage. I’m not talking just about your middle class income looking like wealth to a woman from a poor country. I’m also talking about advantages like ordinary looks being considered exoticly attractive, or common decency making you look like Prince Charming because you’re from a less patriarchal culture.
There are even factors you might not consider; My finacee, (The wedding is scheduled for September.) is a filipina who went looking for a western man because her friends who’d married them all had beautiful looking children. She’s a college graduate with decent prospects, she didn’t have to marry a foreigner to escape poverty. But she did want to start a family, so she went looking for an older, established man, with good family values.
My advice? Use an online service, and be up front about all your problems. Better to scare them away before you even meet them than after you’ve been dating for months.
After three marriages to American women, I would *never* do it again. Two marriages had children — I won custody and raised all three. All three came back *after* the divorce and asked me to take them back. My second wife and I didn’t have children — we were married six months. She came to the marriage with a job and no money — after the marriage she decided to quit her job, go back to school, let me pay the bills and cook for her. In the divorce settlement she was stunned that she didn’t get the house. She was aking for a lot more — she got nothing. I believe in equality, and always treated the marriage as equal — but American women are still struggling with what equality means after 40 years. They want selective equality. They think in terms of equality, and speak in terms of equality — then act any damn way they please. I love them — but would never marry again.
This is to the posters that are against foreign brides.
Your nothing but a piece of shit gay ridden faggot.
American white women are dirt bag cheating obese bound pieces of sewage.
Anyone that prefers an American woman over a foreign women is a gay ridden closet faggot.
Czech, Brazilian, Hungarian, Russian, Thai, are the best women to marry. I have dated many of them and they are beautiful. There not as career minded and independent as Ameriacan women.
White American women sleep there way to the top while they are in the workplace. They are the BIGGEST GOLDIGGERS and they are the lowest scum on the planet.
There is no such thing as a good American white women. They are all trash.
If you really want an American then go for Latinas.
P.S. As an American woman, I may qualify as “sewage” in your eyes…but I’m skinny sewage!
For Japanese women, here is a list of characteristics proven to be ones to avoid. Worse yet with Japanese, some just want a “half” foreign baby and then they run back home.
Warning Signs of future child custody problems when dating, marrying or divorcing a Japanese citizen.
My ex brought a young columbia girl over on a visa, thought she just wanted to come over and have fun, she refused to take her birth control, suddenly changed her mind about wanting children so she could SQUAT out an american citizen and not have to go back, after having been brought over on the pretense of just wanted to see the us. She did not get impregnated and got send back but he went through a hellof a time…these women are gold diggers through and through, and he deserved the chaos that he brought, but my kids who lived with him halftime did not, and it made him look like the middleaged fool that he was.
If the man can’t find someone in the states to woo, what makes him think he will find better in some foreign or impoverished country with different standards, customs, and background which he couldn’t even check before he brought her over?? Turns out her brother was a drug dealer who repeatedly threatened him over the telephone if he did not let her stay, my only concern was for my kids who were living with him part of the time.
Stupid american gringo get stupid foreign hoes…
Foreign women ie Brazilian or Argentine
are more passionate and spontaneous.
It is a pleasure to be in their presence.
Canadian and American woman are too
Business like in their relationships. They
are cold and detached. There are bitches
in all cultures but a lot of foreign woman
have something extra that is lacking in
North American woman……
I do like Hooters girls…..they are lively
And fun to be around
In the words of one person here. I am the one one always picked on at school, could never form relationships,find it difficult geeting to know new people. Apart from all that i bellieve i would make a good husband. I am thinking of making a trip to India, or the Philippines to find my ideal match. I would appreciate any advice. Jim postie59@aol.com
hi everyone.let me tell u about myself. i am looking for canadian girl to marry her.i will give u any info about myself. but just know thes that im a music teacher and i live in iran.if u guys know have case or somegirl plz call me . thanks
Well……..this will be politically incorrect. Has anybody seen the sheer size of a typical american woman? Most of them also have an attitude to match. I personally would not blame anyone for considering someone who would be greatly appreciative of hard work and a solid middle class life.
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