Which means I’ve been arguing this with Natasha. But I’d like to point out: a) none of the commentators know the actual circumstances behind Bristol’s pregnancy, b) it’s unlikely the father was actually forced to marry Bristol; maybe he thought it was the right thing to do, c) I am very glad they are having the baby, noting that I do also favor birth control, d) There is and should be a general rule to treat candidates’ children with the utmost respect, e) I fully understand that John McCain needs to read Adam Smith on the division of labor, overconfidence, and also wise decision-making, f) when an attractive woman is criticized by less attractive men, large segments of the public respond accordingly, g) Obama is wise to say nothing about this, h) Palin should not be required to document every claim she makes about her personal life and it is little short of outrageous to demand gynecological information from her, and, most of all i) without families like this our nation would have no chance of affording the social welfare programs proposed by the Democratic Party.
I love the United States of America.
Addendum: Hail Kevin Drum, but read his commentators.
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Right on, Tyler… I couldn’t agree more!
well said
YOYO
dont you know you are paying for your parents retirment?
large families mean more people contributing to welfare funds.
Ann makes a good point over at Feministing. There is obvious hypocrisy in McCain’s campaign’s press release statement that ‘Bristol Palin made the decision on her own to keep the baby’ (emphasis mine).
That whole ‘getting the blogosphere back’ lasted all of, what, eight hours?
Criticizing Palin for the conduct of her children or her relationships
with them or what she says about them is completely inappropriate and
will backfire on those engaging in it. Those arguing that such
criticism is sexist are completely correct.
However, defending “family values” does not extend to trying to use
the state bureaucracy to fire an ex brother-in-law. The real question
here is: did McCain know about Palin being under an official ethics
investigation for this behavior when he selected her? If he did not,
what does this say about his ability to select competent people for
high level positions in an administration run by him?
d) There is and should be a general rule to treat candidates’ children with the utmost respect,
Well, there should be, anyway. I seem to recall McCain himself making a rather nasty joke about Chelsea Clinton. I also remember some right-wingers went wild when it wa suggested that Chelsea, having dinner with her mother, drank a glass of wine when still underage.
That wouldn’t excuse attacks on Bristol Palin, but let’s not be too pious here about the rules,Tyler.
I love how left-wingers can’t stop from being scum for even just one moment. Seriously, do you have to be evil 100% of the time? Relax, take a break. There will plenty enough to slander people about tomorrow. Seriously. Lay off the kids.
What has all this to do with loving the US?
Is “I love the United States of America” the American patriot’s “Amen”?
All this is hiding the fact that we must look forward to three economic nationalists (Palin, Biden and Obama) and one supposed free-trader (McCain) albeit a “maverick”, i.e. totally unreliable, sparring over the presidency of the US of A. Arghhh….
actually Obama has spoken, to say: “My mother had me when she was 18 … I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.” (from the ny times).
really a perfect answer. i’m right-of-center, but imho obama’s character stands out compared to that of both his supporters and the median presidential candidate of either party.
I haven’t been watching much TV since this “story” broke, but is this really being debated? If so, the Palin nomination has successfully diverted the public discourse into the realm of identity politics, which is a little depressing.
Oh, come on, Brent…you right wingers (including McCain himself) appeared to have had no difficulty mocking Chelsea Clinton, so button up your cardigan and sit down and ponder the real point.
The real point is that McCain is incompetent. What presidential candidate in their right mind would pick an anti-sex-ed mom with a pregnant 17-year-old daughter to be their running mate? It’s sitcom material. You can’t help but burst out laughing if that’s what McCain did. But such appears to be his story.
Far likelier, I think, is that Bristol tapped on her mom’s door Friday or Saturday and said,”Mom…um, there’s something you should know.” Then the Palins and the McCains went into damage control and decided to insist that, oh, sure, they knew all along.
Of course, this means McCain isn’t jaw-droppingly stupid…just a liar and someone who doesn’t properly vet his decisions before acting.
Yeah, that’s just the type of guy that should be prez.
I’m not going to criticize Bristol, I know nothing about her. And I’m certainly not going to in the gynecological direction.
I only have two questions:
1) when did McCain’s camp learn?
2) how did McCain’s camp learn?
This is now, for me, about the decision making ability of the Presidential Nominee.
The moveon and dailykos types (aka liberal fascists) are fascinating. Evil, but fascinating. They’ve raised smears and lies to an art form.
At one point in time there used to be decent people in the Democratic Party. Now it’s soulless scum like Obama. Sad, really.
OK, my timestamp will appear on this post. It’s what I’m thinking right now. I’m with those who send Bristol their wishes and prayers.
I also think that the claim by McCain’s staff that they knew is a lie. There is just no way they would take that gamble. I think that lie is where the story should go next …
it’s unlikely the father was actually forced to marry Bristol
Oh really, why? On what basis do you make this claim? It seems just as likely that the alternative is true. Maybe even more likely, since the wedding–no date yet–was only announced when this pregnancy was revealed. In fact, I think there is a chance that the young man just found out about the wedding, too. I do not know how big of a chance, just as Prof. Cowen has no idea how likely it is that this was his unfettered choice.
And I agree with Obama that it’s not a story worthy of campaign attention.
Tyler says ‘noting that’ more than he ever used to.
Yeah, at a minimum this one will be hard to clean up:
link
Maybe this blindsided poor Bristol, but … the cover-up is sometimes more damaging than the crime.
Of course, one could also say that the US needs a large population of taxpayers to pay for the costs of its wars. Why boldface only social programs? How much of the Democrats programs could have been funded with resources wasted in Iraq?
Sometimes I think Tyler is not distinguishing between i) voters finding Palin physically attractive and ii) voters wanting to vote for her. There is no reason, evolutionarily speaking, why men should find it difficult to think both: “I would like to have sex with her”, and “I would not like to see her in a position of power”.
The most obnoxious blogger in the world still has not posted anything about Palin, or Palin’s children. Impressive restraint. Or maybe just not blogging?
Let me get this straight: Andrew Sullivan said something stupid and incendiary? I hope there is a film at 11.
If we need families like this to sustain social programs, perhaps the Democrats should begin supporting abstinence-only sex education.
Sullivan’s demand for such extensive disclosure would be excessive. If it were truly a demand. Such full disclosure might be reassuring to many. Echoing odograph’s guess, I have a feeling such a disclosure would have been really appreciated by McCain’s crew well ahead of time.
Wow. Granted I’ve only been reading this blog for a short while, but 3 almost consecutive posts on L’Affaire Palin. Frankly, I could care less. The VP is inconsequential. That McCain’s VP was barely vetted, says more about him.
Frankly, I was more bothered by the vile right-wing crap concerning Michelle Obama and Chelsea Clinton in the past. I guess that just betrays my own political bias.
Their Decision to keep to term a Downs Syndrome baby, makes their family more expensive for the social welfare society the Democrats support.
In the interest of truth:
Noting that his mother had him when she was 18 years old, Obama said families are “off limits” in campaigns. He was very impassioned.
“I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people’s families are off limits, and people’s children are especially off limits. This shouldn’t be part of our politics, it has no relevance to governor Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories,” Obama said. “And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know, my mother had me when she was 18. And how family deals with issues and teenage children that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics, and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that is off limits.”
Regarding to the accusation from the McCain camp that rumors of Bristol Palin were being spread by liberal bloggers, some with connections to the Obama campaign, the Illinois senator replied: “I am offended by that statement.There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us. I hope I am as clear as I can be. So in case I am not, let me repeat: We don’t go after people’s families; we don’t get them involved in the politics. It is not appropriate and it is not relevant. Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be. And if I ever thought it was somebody in the campaign that was involved in something like that they would be fired.”
Source: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1321281.aspx
It does seem Sarah Palin has an awful lot on her plate. Does she actually have the time to be Vice President? I assume the intent is to move to Wash DC and for Mr Palin to be a Mr Mom and thats fine but Sarah needs to address the issue
Please, do not go judging anyone’s parenting skills by what their teenagers and grown children do
How else is one to judge parenting skills other than by how the kids turn out?
(Of course, if you agree with Judith Rich Harris’s thesis, parents make little difference to how children turn out.)
After all, Dick Cheney has a lesbian daugher, and got away with it.
Got away with what? Loving his daughter in spite of her sexual orientation? In spite of any of her choices that he disagrees with? He is *such* a hypocrite to love his daughter in spite of her choices and his beliefs.
Just guessing here, but I bet many (most?) parents, regardless of political orientation, love their children even when their children don’t agree with them in word or deed.
Palin’s peak? That only included 3 days in August. We will have to wait till next month to see. Why do you suppose Obama’s fund raising is down. Is the tide shifting?
I guess I’m not seeing how this is such a glaring error on the part of McCain’s vetting process. All I see is a lack of imagination to foresee that Sarah Palin would be accused of *not* mothering her child. And that her daughter would be accused of doing so. Who in their right mind would foresee that? I still have a hard time believing it, despite seeing all the crackpot theories. That they still aren’t letting go of. Unbelievable.
And why would the McCain campaign even think that her daughter being pregnant was an issue? Is it really all that rare for teenagers to get pregnant? I’ve been a high school teacher, I can assure you it isn’t. They probably thought this would be similar to Cheney’s daughter’s sexual orientation. Namely, a non-issue to most voters. Which is how it should be.
The only viable criticism is the idea that this somehow shows that her views on sex ed are ineffective. I’m not sure a sample size of 1 is much cause to draw that conclusion, particularly since pregnancy rates are remarkably similar after either form of sex education. If one approach was clearly better than another, we wouldn’t have such a contentious debate about it. I plan on teaching my daughters that there are a wealth of reasons emotionally and physically to choose abstinence, but I’ll also be teaching them about contraceptives and condoms. Do I really think either one will guarantee them avoiding pregnancy? No. I hope it will, but they’re going to be teenagers someday.
(note: From the studies I’ve seen, it appears that comprehensive beats abstinence-only on some metrics, but not by enough to overcome parents’ desire to control that aspect of their childrens’ education. This is a valid debate to have, but using Palin’s daughter as a pawn puts far too much responsibility on her. Teenage life is hard enough without dealing with this.)
Zogby poll Obama by 2
Rasmussen Obama by 3
CJS, if McCain and Palin knew:
1) They so misunderstood modern culture that they thought it could remain a secret.
or
2) They knew it come out, and were OK with Bristol becoming the most famous pregnant teen in the world, to be known for this all her life.
Are you OK with McCain/Palin choosing No. 2? No. 1 even?
Which polls, in your opinion, are the most accurate?
Honestly, I think reading polls right now is like trying to measure wind speed in the middle of a tornado. Things are just moving too quickly to get an accurate read.
Zogby, however, is by far on the bottom.
And I worry most when Rasmussen is unfavorable to my candidate, and I’m happiest when Ras is favorable.
Rasmussen polls not only registered voters but likely voters as well making it a more accurate poll.
Show us proof that she has ever used force or will ever use force to spread her views. Obama said her daughter is off limits.
Elizabeth,
Sorry, I didn’t realize I had ended my life when I had kids. I have several friends from high school who had kids early and unplanned. They adore their kids and went on to have more. I wasn’t aware that the Palins’ youngest was automatically the oldest daughter’s responsibility, but I would say it’s a safe bet she’ll move out when she’s married, so I doubt she’ll be tasked with caring for her disabled younger brother.
Absolutely, disagree with her abortion stance. But why does her daughter choosing *not* to have an abortion offend you? Being pro-choice implies that there are two valid choices, does it not?
I’m sure both mother and daughter are touched by your concern for the misery and suffering they’re going to have. I’m glad you would extend your condolences to me, as well, I’m sure. Kids are such a hardship, after all.
This isn’t even a case of hypocrisy, since both she and her daughter have chosen not to exercise their right to have an abortion. If they’d had one but wanted to deny it to others, that would be hypocrisy. You or I may disagree with her trying to impose that decision on us, but that has nothing to do with their decisions for their families.
I reiterate, Palin’s or Obama’s views on abortion and sex-ed, or anything else, are fair game; Palin and Obama’s kids are not.
odograph,
I couldn’t even imagine the entire McCain/Palin team somehow believing #1. As for #2, I’m not bothered by it, really. It’s not as if she would have flown below the radar as progeny of a VP candidate anyway, and, really, I might be more bothered if they made a serious calculation of the VP nomination based on the amount of media coverage that Palin’s kids might receive. Her daughter is pregnant and is going to be married – not the end of the world, and not something that should even enter into the calculation, IMHO.
At a loss as to how the pregnancy of Bristol reflects on the candidacy of Sarah? Seriously? For all my adult life, Republicanism has been nearly synonymous conservative social values. Is not pre marital teenage pregnancy is among the usual Republican culture war issues? I’m certain the true believers will find it in their hearts to overlook what might be considered a failure on the part of Palin’s parenting. I just wonder if such forgiveness would be extended to Palin if she happened to have a (D) after her name?
Does anybody think evangelicals would be so understanding if Sarah Palin had a 17 year old son who’d been discovered to be gay? If not, doesn’t the dispensation granted here highlight an awful lot of bigotry?
Yes, because as we all know, the revelation that Dick Cheney’s daughter is a lesbian (repeated in debates by Kerry and Edwards) cost the Bush/Cheney ticket dearly.
But do go on thinking Christians are bigots…
News flash! Palin loses the hard left vote!
Dems lose this one. McCain’s judgment error was not letting the Dem bloggers have a little more rope to hang themselves with. That’s why I don’t think this was a strategic move on their part, and yet, the “party that respects privacy” outs a 17 year old single mother. I really wish the lefties would just come right out and say that Bristol is wrong to expand her carbon footprint by soiling the world with a new human.
Sweden? Why Sweden? According to your graph…
http://www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____75432.asp
…Sweden’s GDP and ours is virtually identical, and both significantly higher than Europe. Why start at 1996? And 1996-2000 was Clinton.
CIA factbook: “”Sweden’s long-successful economic formula of a capitalist system interlarded with substantial welfare elements was challenged in the 1990s by high unemployment and in 2000-02 by the global economic downturn, but fiscal discipline over the past several years has allowed the country to weather economic vagaries. Sweden joined the EU in 1995, but the public rejected the introduction of the euro in a 2003 referendum.”
SWE GDP/capita = $36k
USA GDP/capita = $46k
Starting from much lower, in a gobalized world with a homogenous, educated workforce, why shouldn’t they be reverting to our mean?
Andrew,
My reading of this situation is that the Republicans have outed the 17 year old girl as a way of shifting the media focus away from other, more harmful rumours about her mother.
And as for those rumours, Tyler I don’t think you can simultaneously argue:
(a) that Palin’s giving birth to a down-syndrome child is the locus of her popular appeal; and
(b) that evidence capable of rebutting a prima facie case that she did not give birth to a down syndrome child is off limits.
Someone above suggested that the whole not looking pregnant, travelling for 24 hours during labour to a friendly hospital etc, stuff had been resolved to their satisfaction. I’m very open to that possibility and would love to see those links.
All you Americans that go on about sex education please explain something to me – when did you learn about sex? Did a nice man from the government have to come and tell you about it? I had sex ed classes at 9, 11, 13, and 16 years old, I already new everything covered in those classes by 7-8, so did everyone else I know. I have never met anyone who learned anything in sex ed.
Maybe because American men are so focused on female breasts?
wow! i just wasted six minutes of my life….i’ll have to get up 7 minutes earlier tommorrow
And the most obnoxious blogger in the world has still not posted anything on Palin! Amazing! Were they hit by a bus?
“As for #2, I’m not bothered by it, really. It’s not as if she would have flown below the radar as progeny of a VP candidate anyway, and, really, I might be more bothered if they made a serious calculation of the VP nomination based on the amount of media coverage that Palin’s kids might receive. Her daughter is pregnant and is going to be married – not the end of the world, and not something that should even enter into the calculation, IMHO.”
But that wasn’t the other choice, CJS. The other choice was for Palin to stay governor, and for Bristol (we all know her name now) to fly below the radar in Alaska.
The mind boggling idea here is that if Palin and McCain knew going in that Bristol was pregnant, they were willing to risk a media circus, and Bristol on the cover of the National Enquirer, as part of their campaign. Paparazzi don’t just chase Democrats, they are out there after everybody that will move a supermarket tabloid.
So this cuts on two levels: horrible risk-taking for McCain on his own campaign, and risk taking on behalf of Bristol and her future.
On the campaign front this poll doesn’t show it looking too good
Even on marginalrevolution.com the commenter douche-bag ratio is too high. That sarchastic christian who posted at 7:35:41 AM is especially douchy.
Well, let’s put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Imagine if Obama had a seventeen year old daughter pregnant out of wedlock. Obama’s position would remain the same: families should not be part of the political discussion.
But, the right would be running 24/7 with the story without any remorse, with a we-told-you-so attitude. No one would be able to shut them up. They’d crush Obama with it. Imagine the Rush Limbaugh parody song about it. In fact, if the situation were reversed, we would not be having this conversation about whether this subject is legitimate or not.
So tell me again why this pregnancy is off-limits?
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