Every one of my trips to Canada has been a joy and so I very much liked Will Wilkinson's post defending Canadian liberty (Will, by the way, has hit new blogging heights in the last few weeks; read through the whole bit). Here is one highlight (under the fold):
and political tradition than does Canada. But then isn’t it all the
more interesting to note that, despite America’s unique “land of the
free” self-conception, we’re no more free than Canadians? I feel
strongly that American culture is more varied, alive, weirder,
synthetic, and creative than probably any other. This is in part
because of, and not despite, the odd conservative and religious strands
in American culture. And it is a culture especially amenable to all
sorts of entrepreneurial experiments, which gives American culture a
level of innovation and vitality (including countless varieties of
religious weirdness) that I think partly explains why it is the world’s
dominant exporter of culture. And I think the U.S.’s wealth relative to
other countries is actually underestimated. We are astoundingly rich
(recession or no recession) and this is a place of crazy opportunity.
So I think the U.S. does better in positive liberty terms than it
sometimes gets credit for.
But that doesn’t begin to mean that we live up to our reputation for
the kind of liberty classical liberals tend to care about. My sense is
that some American libertarians have a vague sense that if Canada
really was more free, then they should want to move there. But they
emphatically don’t want to move to Canada. My diagnosis is that many
libertarians prefer to live in a place where it easy to find others who
share their individualistic and libertarian values over living in a
place where they would actually be more free, but would feel more culturally alienated.
Via Megan McArdle, here's talk of safe Canadian banks and yet Canadian is still seeing the same downturn as the United States. One can preach the virtues of Canadian banking regulation as much as one wants, but the Fischer Black-like question remains: how much real net risk exposure did Canadian industry accept vis-a-vis all external sources of risk, U.S. financial institutions included? Lots. A decision not to economically decouple from a large, leveraged economy is a small bit like a decision to leverage oneself, though many people do not welcome this perspective. The bottom line is that risk mistakes have been made by just about everybody, not just the obvious culprits.
Addendum: Arnold Kling is not Canadian but Megan McArdle defends him aptly; he wasn't guilty of anything in the first place, except perhaps having exaggerated the coercive nature of taxation,
Shock of shocks, someone defending nice, true-hearted Canada, because they are so awfully picked upon. And one that in doing so chastizes America. It would be nice to see, for once, someone do the same for Canada: not bash, but chastize – openly, not in mutterings – the general practice by Canadians of openly – not in mutterings – proclaiming everything Canadian to be at its core true and just and pure, and certainly better than anything or anyone American.
I have a great many Canadian friends, true friends, and have spent a great deal of time in Canada. I don’t thump my chest or proclaim, other than in good-natured ribbing which is returned, that there is anything inferior about Canada. It is simply different. But I get extremely tired of reading people who feel the need to demonstrate their own above-it-ness this way, if only because you can’t shake a stick on a given day without running into this kind of thing.
How in the world could the Canadians decide to decouple from the US?
That has to be about the most unrealistic thing I have ever seen at this blog.
I’m sorry but WW is nuts. There’s nothing “libertarian” about speech codes, government healthcare
or rampant judicial imperialism.
So how free is Canada in economic terms? How does the tax burden and the regulatory burden compare to that in the U.S.?
Can I start a mail-order business (no customer visits) out of my home without being harassed by the local authorities?
How much paperwork must I submit to the government for each employee I hire? How high are the “employer-side” taxes?
If I have the money, can I see the doctor *I* want to see?
What paperwork must I submit and how much do I have to pay in fees if I want to build my own house on a lot zoned for a single-family house?
Can I put a manufactured house on a single-family-house-zoned lot?
How easy is it to subdivide a large lot into smaller ones with single-family zoning?
How likely is it that the government will want to take my house for some private use?
If the government wants to take my house for a public use (or private), how fair will the compensation be?
If I am Geert WIlders or Mark Steyn, how free am I?
Just for fun:
So how free is Canada in economic terms? How does the tax burden and the regulatory burden compare to that in the U.S.?
In total burden not that different, though as with all countries the tax code and regulatory burdens have been badly skewed by lobbying, just in different ways. For example, almost no biotech firms pay any taxes in Canada. I think our “rack rate” corporate tax rates are generally lower, though the US code probably has more loopholes. Our farm subsidies are as bad as yours but we subsidize slightly different garbage. Our personal tax rates are higher at the top of the income spectrum.
In terms of total tax burden, probably higher if you’re rich, lower if you’re poor – especially if you count things like healthcare (i.e., you’re getting something for your money) – [tax + healthcare] is waaaay lower if you’re poor but clearly higher if you’re rich and gainfully employed.
How much paperwork must I submit to the government for each employee I hire? How high are the “employer-side” taxes?
As I said, corporate tax rate is lower at rack-rate than the US but who-the-hell-knows once you build in all the loopholes. And since healthcare benefits are a non-issue for small businesses in Canada, net paperwork is probably in line or lower up here, though I’m sure it’s miserable in basically every jurisdiction anywhere ever.
If I have the money, can I see the doctor *I* want to see?
You can see the doctor you want to see even if you don’t have any money.
How easy is it to subdivide a large lot into smaller ones with single-family zoning?
No idea. Why the obsession with real estate law? This seriously comes to mind before habeus corpus?
“except perhaps having exaggerated the coercive nature of taxation”
Are you suggesting that taxation is not coercive? If I just ask the IRS very very nicely, I’ll be able to keep my money and they won’t seize my bank account or property?
Anthony,
The first thing you must understand is that Canada is much more decentralized than the U.S, so your hypothetical mileage would vary greatly depending upon in which province you choose to live. Generally speaking, the 3 western-most provinces (Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia) are the most like the U.S, both from a tax and regulatory burden. They also have stronger elements libertarianism, perhaps proportionally higher than anywhere else in North America.
Ontario is almost 40% of Canada’s population, so it’s hard to ignore however. Your tax burden, if you’re married and your household income is <100k, will not be substantially different than most American states once you take into account the costs of healthcare. If you make more than say 125k, you will pay substantially more in taxes. Proportionally, Canada has a much smaller upper-middle income class than the U.S for this reason. If you make less than 35k a year, you will pay about the same, but your quality of life will be improved over the U.S thanks to the healthcare and public transit subsidies (remember 1/3 of Canada’s population lives in Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver). Proportionally, Canada has a much larger lower-middle income class than the U.S for this reason.
Quebec is well†¦ Quebec. If you make over 70k and you’re single, you’re screwed. The difference in income taxes between a married couple making $150k in Quebec versus Alberta is on the order of $10k per year. That’s not taking into account significantly higher user fees, 7.5% provincial sales and goods tax, higher insurance premiums, etc. Not surprisingly, Quebec has the most instances of tax evasion in the country and a large black market economy. Government red tape for businesses and individuals is also more substantial. Quebec is closer to the European continental model than it is the North American one. If you plan to start a business, keep in mind that 40% of its workforce is unionized.
There’s nothing “libertarian” about speech codes, government healthcare or rampant judicial imperialism.
All of which are also present in the U.S.
For all the people complaining about human rights commissions and regulations in Canada, yes they inhibit freedom.
The question is not which is the paragon of freedom, the US or Canada, but which is more free? Both the US and Canada have large and significant limits on the freedom of residents. Setting up a mail order business from home is a pain in the US too, I worked for one, and there was tons of paperwork.
Both countries are unfree in important ways, but I think (having lived as an adult in both Canada and the US), that Canada is slightly more free than the US, though Quebec is a bit of an exception with regard to business law. But then again, Texas is an exception in the US with regard to civil liberties.
Robert,
I live in Calgary. Does that count? I never said they represented a majority. I didn’t include Manitoba. Saskatchewan was dominated by the NDP because of vote splitting. Anyway, I’m not so sure they were ever in love with the NDP so much as looking for a political voice in Ottawa. They could call the NDP their own, even if it meant voting against their own self interest. They’re 3% of Canada’s population, but the NDP made them more important on the national scene. Look how quickly they’ve abandoned the principles of the NDP once a united party was formed both provincially and federally (right of centre). Contrary to popular belief, Albertans and BCers actually have the highest proportion of non-religious folks in the country and generally supported gay marriage. They definitely don’t believe in the gun registry. Alberta has substantially contracted out all of its citizen government services to the private sector. Is there any state in the U.S that doesn’t have a DMV and government registrar’s office? The west has been most vocal about the overreach of the Supreme Court and the censorship of speech rights, but because of their percentage of population, they can’t change the laws in Ottawa. In terms of economic freedom, Alberta is ranked 2nd out of all US states and Canadian provinces by the Fraser Institute.
“While the US focuses on “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”, Canada’s motto is “Peace, Order and Good Government.” I know which one I’d take…”
Neither motto is mutually exclusive. I think citizens in both counties would agree that all six are goals.
Much of the perceived intolerance Canadians have towards the right-wing isn’t intolerance as much as understanding yet disagreeing with that viewpoint.
For example, I am a very liberal person from Toronto. I value the right to bear arms. I simply think an easily obtainable government permit for a rifle is a reasonable expectation
“canada day is a day off in the middle of the week (july1) but july4 falls on a saturday so most americans will not even get a day off!! who approved either one of these arrangements? twits all”
This is like complaining that Daylight Savings causes global warming.
That’s cool. In America, people who always disliked taxes have recently become racist once we got a black prez. That’s how we rollz.
If I read one more post from “libertarians” like Cowen and Wilkinson about how great Canada is, I am going to vacate the content of my stomach.
It would be nice if you (and I am talking more about Wilkinson here) actually knew something about the place.
although quebec has the highest tax burden of CAN for the modal inhabitant, people vote with their feet. Quebec suffers from very little of the “braindrain” affecting the alantic provinces and generally enjoys favorable ratings from it’s inhabitants. It might just be a case of “you get what you pay for”
Ahenakew had his conviction overturned, and the Governor General let him keep his Order of Canada as well.
You can’t even deny the Holocaust in Canada. How can they have any fun? I don’t know about you, but as far as I’m concerned a weekend doesn’t deserve to be called a weekend unless it involves staying up at all hours drinking, fighting and questioning the historical veracity of civilian casualties in Europe during the second world war and our confidence in the number of designated undesirables (particularly Jews qua Jews) killed by the Third Reich and specifically the mechanism of gas chambers vs disease, overwork and starvation which would elucidate whether what occurred was typical in quality (if not extent) of combatants during total war (with the Boer War perhaps serving as precedent) or the aberrant deliberate evil of an unusually genocidal regime. Yee-hah! I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what the Declaration of Independence and MLK’s dream was all about.
No… the court did not rule that Ahenakew’s pro-Nazi rant was free speech, the court ruled the Ahenakew might have been temporarily insane because he was taking heart medication (although the real reason he was found innocent was because he pals around with Jack Layton and Jean Chretien, and hate speech rules don’t apply to people with powerful friends).
You can deny the Holocaust if you are David Ahenakew.
However, your reaction is a perfect example of how totalitarianism works. Your government creates an authority that lets a tribunal of political appointees punish and sometimes jail people for their political statements, without a jury trial or a presumption of innocence or even a consistent definition of what qualifies as “hate”, and the system is then used to punish people who have made statements that aren’t remotely racist or hateful (including very popular mainstream national magazines and newspapers) while letting politically connected neo-nazis off the hook… And then if anyone dares question the system you try to imply they are racist!
In Canada, an organization like the ACLU would be branded as a right-wing hate group and banned (by the same politicians who pal around with neo-Nazi’s like David Ahenakew!), and as such people who know a thing or two about Canadian politics tend to balk at the idea of Canada being exceptionally free. If Canada is comparable to the U.S. in freedom, that is an example of how un-free the United States is becoming, not an example of how free Canada is.
If I have the money, can I see the doctor *I* want to see?
You can see the doctor you want to see even if you don’t have any money.
Not necessarily. The Wall Street Journal had a good op-ed a couple weeks ago by a Canadian doctor (I think the writer was a doctor) pointing out some rationing problems with the Canadian healthcare system.
If you need an operation, you might not be able to get it in Canada, or you might have to wait for a very long time. That’s why some Canadians go to the U.S. for healthcare. I doubt any Americans go to Canada form treatments.
@ZippyPippy I really have a hard time believing that. I am Canadian and have spent most of my life in Canada. I am personally against the hate speech laws, but you are blowing them far out of proportion and using false examples to do it. For instance, Sharia law is not used in any courts (including family courts) in Ontario (http://tr.im/g6q3)
Honestly, being in DC right now, Canada is way more diverse than the US. Half of everyone living in Toronto (our biggest city) wasn’t born there. Even Ottawa seems more diverse than DC. Honestly, diversity here (some said this already) just means black people and white people. The world is a lot bigger than that.
Ryan – DC is only attractive to natives, not immigrants, because most of its opportunities are political in nature, and thus not nearly as open to immigrants. For sheer diversity, look at New York, or San Francisco, or Los Angeles.
zippywhatever…
yes, I’m sure there was a call from the Liberal party to the Supreme Court to overturn the Ahenakew conviction. Everyone knows that’s the way it works with those powerful, powerful politicians.
Paranoid much?
“the real reason he was found innocent was because he pals around with Jack Layton and Jean Chretien, and hate speech rules don’t apply to people with powerful friends”
Yes, that is the Liberal party all over. In bed with the Neo Nazis. The same party of Trudeau and Chretien, of Dion and Axworthy and Sheila Copps. The party that selfsame party that implemented the friggin’ Charter of Rights, you maroon. Up there with the Holocaust deniers in some bizarre political triangulation only the all powerful Star Chamber of Iggy and Dion could conceive in their nightmarish scheme to rule the minds of decent thinking Canadians from Kispiox to Kuujuaq. Now it all makes sense! Hoo hoo! Who knows how deep this goes! The truth? You can’t handle the truth!
The “real reason” indeed. The “real reason” only anonymous sages like yourself, brave on the interwebs, can truly know.
“real reason” [mutter mutter].
I think I might move to Canada. I love Terrence and Philip as portrayed in South Park. One serious thing though I learned about Canada: they have the best civil servants in the world. Now how about?
The immigration patterns of the two countries would seem to settle this argument. The U.S., with a population ten times that of Canada’s, loses six thousand people a year to Canada, while Canada loses 30,000 a year to the U.S.
The U.S. might not be freer, but it is obviously better.
“How many countries in this world have given as many of it’s citizen’s lives for other country’s people’s freedoms?”
Canada suffered casualties of .4% of its population in World War II; the US, .3%.
In World War I, .9% vs .1% .
Incidentally, Australia’s higher than either in both cases.
“Canada modeled itself after the US … , the US would always be available to help them …” etc etc
Well, no. Canada federated as a defensive maneuver against Manifest Destiny-era US imperialist expansion. Canada wasn’t fundamentally under US military protection until after WWII; the US was the real military *threat* to Canada for a long time.
“The U.S. might not be freer, but it is obviously better.”
Well, obviously. That much should be the starting premise in any discussion about any other country. Just how desperately envious and filled with self loathing people in other countries are, not to have had the privilege of being born American. From there, you can continue on to enumerate the ways in which the US is better than the other country, and the ways in which the other country is worse. “U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!”
“The main link missing hereis that Canada exists only because the US essentially birthed it.”
News to the British, I expect. Actually, our Constitution was intended to be a repudiation of the US federal model, which was seen to have failed so badly, resulting in the Civil war.
“How many countries in this world have given as many of it’s citizen’s lives for other country’s people’s freedoms? NONE ,”
You just have to be attacked first in order to invoke this high minded sacrifice. Recall Canada was at war over two years longer than the US in WWII and over 3years longer in WWI (and suffered far more devastating losses). More importantly, there’s no apostophe after “it” when making a possessive.
“NONE , that is why we are the freeist country on earth.”
Yes, the number of soldiers killed is directly proportional to the degree of domestic political and economic freedom. Which is why all sortsa countries routinely send them off to be killed in foreign lands, I guess.
“and the US guarantees your freedoms by being that ally.”
Which is just how I felt when I was fingerprinted at the border last month. Thank you, ally, for guaranteeing my freedoms!
“How many countries in this world have given as many of it’s citizen’s lives for other country’s people’s freedoms? NONE , that is why we are the freeist country on earth. ” (Rob Fredericks)
Actually, proportionally about the same in the case of WWII (Canada/US), Canada proportionally far more in WWI.
Neither country is particularly exceptional in that regard: Australia even higher, New Zealand higher than the Aussies, etc. Assuming we look at countries outside the usually accepted direct areas of combat in the two world wars and use math and stuff.
The problem for libertarians is that Canada is a pretty free society, with a much better record on that score than America on many issues.
That is particularly true if you are a user of medical marijuana, if you seek an abortion, or if you happen to be of certain racial minorities (Canadian record not perfect, but much better than the situation black males find themselves in the USA, where it has been shown that their chance of incarceration for, eg, a drug possession crime is far greater than for a white male). Those opposed to military conscription in the Vietnam War have a similar cause to thank Canadian liberty.
I would also argue that for the majority of people, a universal healthcare system offers greater freedom than one where those with money can buy whatever healthcare they want (at least in theory). The Canadian system means you can fail in other parts of your life, but you (or your children!) don’t die because of it.
You are not actually prohibited from owning guns in Canada, you are just required to register that you have done so and to take certain precautions regarding their storage and use. I don’t count owning a machine gun as a fundamental human right.
Americans talk a lot about ‘liberty’ but for a lot of Americans, that is the freedom to act and think like other Americans. I tend to find Americans know relatively little about other countries (which is perhaps natural, but it does allow the mythology that America is always the best place to live and the freest country to be promulgated– FWIW Scandinavia is noticeably bigger on individual rights against authority than either Canada or the US).
On the economy, of course Canada cannot decouple from the USA, any more than Wyoming can ‘decouple’ from the US economy.
Where Canadians let the side down is they often evince a chip on their shoulder towards their larger neighbour, and a tendency to stereotype same. All Americans are not GWB. Canada can also be tediously ‘politically correct’ at times– a function of national and regional politics which is about winning the votes of different ethnic groups.
There’s also a national tendency to avoid giving offence, which can be both charming and wearing, at times.
Nice post.
good post and thank you
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