Top STEM source cities as a percentage of Total F-1 students, the culture that is South India

by on October 28, 2014 at 12:25 am in Education, Science | Permalink

1. Vijayawada, India

2. Visakhapatnam, India

3. Chennai, India

4. Hyderabad, India

5. Secunderabad, India

6. Pune, India

7. Teheran, Iran

8. Bangalore, India

9. Kolkata, India

10. Dhaka, Bangladesh

For absolute numbers, Hyderabad is #1.

That is all from the new Brookings report, The Geography of Foreign Students in U.S. Higher Education, by Neil G. Ruiz.

1 SSS October 28, 2014 at 1:29 am

I guess that’s because young people in these countries have few alternatives. Even working in a call center requires at least Bachelor’s degree.

2 Steve Sailer October 28, 2014 at 1:34 am

My blog posting from 2002:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2002/03/why-are-south-indians-so-smart.html

Now up to 477 comments.

3 Steve Sailer October 28, 2014 at 1:36 am

As I wrote 12 years ago:

“One of the least predicted phenomena of recent decades was the emergence of a huge number of people with brilliant technical skills in South India. As far as I know, nobody saw it coming. It doesn’t fit either standard cultural theories (e.g., the “center” flourishes at the expense of the “periphery” – until recently, you couldn’t get much more peripheral than Bangalore) or evolutionary theories (e.g., cold winters may select for high IQ, but South India is awfully warm).”

4 Ray Lopez October 28, 2014 at 1:58 am

“nobody saw it coming” – Then you are ignorant, nothing more. Krugman won his Nobel Prize over “clustering”, so he saw it coming. If you are arguing nobody saw the specific clustering of south India coming, that’s almost like saying nobody can predict the future: true, so what? Back to skool for you.

5 Just Another MR Commentor October 28, 2014 at 8:00 am

Yeah sure, the only work on clustering Krugman has done is the clustering of liberal zombies at the New York Times.

6 Careless October 29, 2014 at 11:09 pm

Krugman won the Nobel for tech clustering in South India?

You’re an idiot.

7 RPLong October 28, 2014 at 11:30 am

So when do you plan on rejecting these theories since they don’t adhere to real-world empirical data? It’s not as if the presence of intellectual genius on the Indian sub-continent is recent to this decade, or century, or eon.

8 charlie October 28, 2014 at 12:43 pm

You don’t know many South Indians, do you?

A huge part is anti-Brahamism in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere.

Affirmative Action is also a huge driver. For upper caste people to leave.

South Indians have been too brainy for well over 150 years.

9 Sailer Fan October 28, 2014 at 3:13 am

Steve,
By the way, what happened to your 2003 archives? All those embarrassing posts about your support for the Iraqi war, which were all written in 2003, are conveniently gone. Strange

10 Steve Sailer October 28, 2014 at 3:26 am

What support for the Iraq Attaq?

Here are my blogs from early 2003:

http://isteve.com/Web%20Exclusives%20Archive-Jan2003.htm

http://isteve.com/Web%20Exclusives%20Archive-Feb2003.htm

http://isteve.com/Web%20Exclusives%20Archive-Mar2003.htm

Or just read this article from The American Conservative of January 13, 2003, which begins:

“Many prominent neoconservatives are calling on America not only to conquer Iraq (and perhaps more Muslim nations after that), but also to rebuild Iraqi society in order to jumpstart the democratization of the Middle East. Yet, Americans know so little about the Middle East that few of us are even aware of one of one of the building blocks of Arab Muslim cultures — cousin marriage. Not surprisingly, we are almost utterly innocent of any understanding of how much the high degree of inbreeding in Iraq could interfere with our nation building ambitions.

“In Iraq, as in much of the region, nearly half of all married couples are first or second cousins to each other.”

http://www.isteve.com/cousin_marriage_conundrum.htm

11 Thor October 28, 2014 at 12:58 pm

That was the (incompetent) Sailor fan. You should see what the (incompetent) Sailor enemy says!

12 China Cat October 28, 2014 at 1:56 pm

“You are all a bunch of ignorant racists!”?

13 Ashok Rao October 28, 2014 at 3:20 am

I don’t think this chart is showing what you think its showing.

Of course, as a Telugu-Kannada hybrid that lived in Chennai, South Indians touting their own horn has become background noise, but to make a few obvious points… Even ceding that on average South Indians are maybe an IQ point or two smarter than the average, it is absolutely unclear that Indian success in the USA has anything to do with culture or genetics as much as specific institutional selection systems that allows India to export a disproportionate set of its top talent to the US.

Tyler’s chart shows STEM/Total in the set of F1 Visa holders. But read the caveat:

“Hyderabad, India, sent the largest number of STEM students (20,800) to the United States and ranked fourth for the percentage of its students pursuing a STEM degree (80 percent) during the 2008-2012 period. Notably, 91 percent of students from Hyderabad are studying for a master’s degree, versus only 4 percent for a bachelor’s degree. The vast majority were studying for computer and information sciences (9,100) and engineering (8,800) degrees. The top five destination schools of F-1 students from Hyderabad are institutions with no major research activity under the Carnegie classification system. The largest is International Technological University (ITU), a non-profit accredited Master’s Medium-Sized College with no research activity. Other top destination schools of foreign students from Hyderabad include for-profit Master’s Small and Larger Programs such as University of Northern Virginia (unaccredited and shut down by Department of Homeland Security (DHS)), Stratford University (accredited), Tri- Valley University (unaccredited and shut down by DHS) and Herguan University (unaccredited). Some of these schools have been closed down because they were abusing the F-1 visa system and the Curricular Practical Training (CPT) program to bring students to work for employers, rather than primarily to study for a degree program. But despite dominating a large proportion of Indian students from Hyderabad, Carnegie-classified Masters Colleges overall make up between only 1.1 percent (Smaller Programs) to 16.5 percent (Larger Programs) of all STEM F-1 students.”

I don’t think the nearly-bankrupt ITU, that doesn’t have a single notable alumni per Wikipedia, is the glowing example of South Indian talent you are looking for.

And when you look at the actual source of foreign students in America, cities from China and Korea become a lot more prominent, even adjusting for population, and whatever lead South India had over North India vanishes. (And the intellectual capitals of the world that are Kathmandu and Jeddah beat Chennai – home of the brilliant Ramanujan, as jingoistic Tamilians will never fail to remind you!)

So then numbers like these become interesting:
Indian American : $86,135[2]
South African American : $81,912[3]
Filipino American : $76,954[2]
Taiwanese American : $73,988[2]
Maltese American : $72,847[3]
British American : $72,268[3]
Russian American : $72,179[3]
Australian American : $72,104[3]
Latvian American : $71,797[3]
Iranian American : $68,028[3]
Lithuanian American : $67,493[3]
Lebanese American : $67,264[3]
Chinese American : $67,211[2]

That’s a staggering lead Indians have there. And I’ve certainly heard nobody talk about the genetic-cultural dominance of the Anglo-Saxon South Africans (much less about the few Africans that managed to squeeze through!) – a fact borne out by the barely-median salary earned by Dutch-Americans (suggesting some sort of selection system at play!)

And for all the wealthy Indians, Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis, and Pakistanis are relatively poor. Sure religion probably plays a role (though insignificant, metro numbers I’ve seen for Muslims from India don’t back that theory up, either) but this effect can’t be too large. And the Pakistan-Bangladesh divide is huge. So is the India-Sri Lanka divide. What gives?

Selection systems.

There is a very clear institutional framework through which the brightest Indian students, all invariably brought up in middle-class homes that were cash poor but culture rich, who were also diligent enough to spend 14 hours a day grinding for an extra point or two on a pretty boring exam can secure their seat in STEM programs in US universities. The fact that the US in the 1960s basically enacted a racist quota system that ensured America remained white for the foreseeable future meant that any idiot from UK could immigrate but only the tippy-top Asians could.

So then what explains the relative success of India versus the rest of Asia. I have a little more trouble with this one. Clearly genetics and culture cannot explain most of the variance (as explained above). Selection systems are the only big thing that’s left, but what selection systems are those exactly?

From my knowledge, the SKY universities in Korea are equally grueling as the IITs, and China must have something similar. I have a few guesses.

There is probably something superior about the India–>US export with a much clearer framework than China or Korea, which are able to send more non-STEM students for some reason. Korea and China probably had much easier immigration restrictions given prior history. (The first Chinese after all did make their name racing the Irish to… build railroads).

Another appealing answer is English-language and English-culture fluency among Indians in general, but the culture-rich, IIT exports in particular. This would explain the divergence with both Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka as well as Korea and Chinese, whose students stereotypically fail at assimilating. You’ve probably never met anyone from India pursuing graduate studies here that couldn’t converse with you fluently. In some universities you might say the opposite about pretty much any other group of Asians.

That makes a huge difference. A statistic Indians love to throw out is that there was a time in the 1990s mania when something like 40% of venture-backed startups were co-founded by either Indians or IITians (I can’t remember which, and regardless the number is fantastic). But obviously that requires being able to communicate and joke and get along with the white powers that be, something every other Asian by initial condition (despite being just as smart, driven, or hard working) fails at. (Relatively).

This would also explain Filipino success.

India also has a relative advantage of exporting doctors which happens to be a highly protected industry in the US, and therefore a structural anomaly. I’d have an impossible time believing anesthesiologists earning way more than they should (largely replaceable by robots) are actually smarter than tons of people in the $70-90k range. I don’t think brown software engineers (trained in the same US institutions) are better than their white counterparts. There’s definitely a dearth of any Indian political and social force in the US, relative to income. (Though, at least at top undergrad campuses across the country, that is most certainly changing).

So clearly there is a lot more to the story than South Indians win. That said, anecdotally, I feel like there is something to the story, but I can’t help but discount that as a personal bias from someone who may have had an unusual experience. I will note that at least at Penn, the most prestigious undergrad program (a Wharton-Engineering dual degree, designed to thrust you into either tech or high finance) is dominated by Indians everywhere. There’s more to that than institutional selection factors. I can’t quite figure out what.

14 Ray Lopez October 28, 2014 at 4:51 am

Ashok is back! This young man is a genius.
Apropos of nothing, an Indian guy here said the south Indians are dark because they are closer related to Africans, since as is well known the hominid that left Africa migrated along the seacoasts of southeast Asia. That’s one explanation for the darker skin, curly hair, etc. If you ask SS SS that’s also why their IQ is lower, and why as Ashok says nobody who is anybody is from south India. But this is true of the developing world in general: Google “IQ by Country” and read the chart (keep in mind ten points is a big deal in IQ, note where the developing countries are). An average professional in the USA is a superstar here in the Philippines (pace me: I was a superstar in the USA as well). That includes sports stars too (ex-US college basketball players do well here). But it’s also a function of institutions: many schools in the PH don’t even have fee internet (or if they do it’s so crowded you cannot use it) so students suffer.

15 Ricardo October 28, 2014 at 10:00 am

“That’s one explanation for the darker skin”

I’m not a biologist, but I would have guessed that these are unrelated (different alleles).

16 shrikanthk October 29, 2014 at 1:34 am

You’re wrong about the race comments.

Most Indians are dark! Be it north or South. The difference in melanin concentrations is mainly across castes and not across regions. i.e the so-called upper castes are more Eurasian than the rest of the population (though it’s just a question of degree here). South India is not a Dravidian block as is often imagined. It is greatly aryanized over millenia both culturally as well as racially.

17 Rahul October 28, 2014 at 5:01 am

“relative success of India versus the rest of Asia”? By what metrics are you labeling them as relatively less successful? It isn’t obvious to me at all that India is more successful than the rest of Asia.

18 Ashok Rao October 28, 2014 at 10:52 am

Sorry that wasn’t clear. I meant Indians in America who by almost any metric are more successful than other Asians in America.

19 Rahul October 28, 2014 at 11:28 am

Ok, my bad too. I should have read more carefully.

OTOH, that was kinda a TL;DR comment.

20 albert magnus October 28, 2014 at 7:29 am

Just my personal experience, but a bet a lot of the South African population is Jewish. There are lots of South African Jewish doctors in Houston for some reason.

21 Rahul October 28, 2014 at 12:12 pm

Diamonds?

22 Ted Craig October 28, 2014 at 10:17 am

I wonder how much this still reflects a lack of opportunity in India. If you look at a list like the Forbes Global 2000, India still doesn’t have a company in the Top 100. A top Korean student can stay home and work for Samsung or Hyundai. Mahindra and Infosys just aren’t the same.

23 Rahul October 28, 2014 at 11:31 am

Exactly. Also, check what Mahindra pays its engineers. Finally, even if you got the fanciest pay there’s only so much quality-of-life you can buy. Traffic, dengue & smog are hard to avoid by throwing money at the problem.

24 Andao October 29, 2014 at 10:15 am

The funny thing though is that very few rich Indians want to emigrate, only 6%. The same figure with Chinese is 30-50%, what’s up with that?
http://qz.com/266943/do-half-of-chinas-millionaires-really-want-to-emigrate-not-exactly/

25 FC October 28, 2014 at 7:54 pm

“Of course, as a Telugu-Kannada hybrid…”

That’s much better than a Tetsuo-Kaneda hybrid.

26 shrikanthk October 29, 2014 at 1:28 am

Well said.

Am a South Indian here working in Delhi. I don’t think there exists any intellectual edge (for South Indians vis-a-vis North Indians that is). It is essentially a very strong cultural preference for STEM disciplines in South India. There are several northern states that contribute more students to IITs than even TN or Karnataka for that matter. It’s just that those north indian students are more likely to stay back in India or go on to do business education at IIMs or American universities. Hence they don’t show up in these STEM numbers. Bright North Indian kids are also more likely to study liberal arts (Economics included) at top universities than South Indians.

Also the other oft-ignored aspect is caste. Caste distinctions are always much much stronger down south than in North India. Also anti-Brahminism is a big big factor in many parts of South India (especially Tamil Nadu and Karnataka) which also contributes to the exodus of many bright kids from these communities to US. In the North, there is no great distinction in the academic and economic performance of say Brahmins vis-a-vis trading castes. But in the South, the distinction is often very big.

27 shrikanthk October 29, 2014 at 1:44 am

Also a very pertinent remark by Ashok on “cash poor but culture rich” students.
This is especially true in South India – where the English speaking middle class is much bigger in size than in North India. These are students brought up in fairly poor homes (by Western standards), but very culture rich. Highly anglicized in their tastes in books and movies. And very very willing to put in very long hours. It is a curious combination of all these attributes – diligence, degree of anglicization, lack of capital back home, absence of clan culture that is closely related to the lack of capital – that makes South India a winner when it comes to US education charts.

28 Rahul October 29, 2014 at 2:00 am

What’s your evidence for “Caste distinctions are always much much stronger down south than in North India.”?

Most of the caste killings & violence stories seem to come from the north. How do you quantify “much stronger”?

29 shrikanthk October 29, 2014 at 2:13 am

I was referring to difference in academic and economic performance across the castes in South vs North.

Yes. Caste is very much a reality even up North. And there are many incidents of violence driven by caste across the country. But the upper castes of north india are less anglicised than their counterparts down South. I don’t have the data for this. But it would be good to compare the average education level among North Indian brahmins versus South Indian brahmins. You will sure observe a big difference. (especially if you use metrics like % post graduates, % with English medium education for 2+ generations)

Also the other factor is that the elites of North India are more closely tied to their land and are less willing to move out to a different country. In contrast, the cash-poor, culture rich elites of Southern India have always led a ghetto-like existence down South for centuries (or maybe millennia) (as a lot of the so-called upper castes of South are ancient north indian migrants to South). They are less emotionally tied to their native places for this reason and more willing to settle in distant regions (be it North India or US or UK).

30 Rahul October 29, 2014 at 2:43 am

@shrikanthk

I’m not sure. Yes, the average education level of North brahmins might be lower than the South Brahmins. But the average education level of the North, in general, is lower than the south. It isn’t a caste specific phenomenon. So also for Anglicization. Overall, the North is less anglicized than the south & so also are the upper castes.

If one assumes that North Indians are more closely tied to their lands how do you explain the Patel & Punjab quotient of the exodus? And a southerner nostalgic endless about Carnatic music is hard to imagine having weak emotional ties.

My point: Lot of these explanations are just-so stories. They are tantalizing in their elegance & superficial explanatory power but the empirical reality is far more complex.

31 JamesC October 29, 2014 at 4:26 am

Yes, Selection process is the most important factor here. you don’t need to look far, East Indian in Canada provide a great contrasting example to Indian American. The cream of India come to USA, the rest to UK, Canada, and Australia…

32 ThomasH October 28, 2014 at 10:26 am

First, is there really a “it” to be explained. Is the percent of “smart” people in South India greater than would be expected if smartness is randomly distributed. And is expecting where pockets of exceptional on dimension X (if more pronounced than random distribution would predict) a big business? Another example of the non-utility of explaining why X exists before showing that X exists.

33 Rahul October 28, 2014 at 12:11 pm

Well said. Sometimes people seem to love their explanations so much that they lose track of whether there’s an underlying fact that needs explaining.

34 Ray Lopez October 28, 2014 at 2:02 am

Tehran? 7. Teheran, Iran? Are they all studying in UCLA? I didn’t know the USA had any foreign students from Tehran, except dissidents? Bizarre. The Brookings link says “Iran 99 [students]” studying in the USA. They must all be children of dissidents I would imagine. So 99 kids gets you to #7 spot? Move along, nothing to see or hear here, here here!

35 Steve Sailer October 28, 2014 at 2:19 am

“Dissidents”?

Los Angeles / Beverly Hills is full of Iranians, many of them Jews, who visit their relatives in Iran annually. The concept widely publicized within the U.S. that Iran is the new Nazi Germany is easier to believe the farther you live from Rodeo Drive.

36 Ray Lopez October 28, 2014 at 2:22 am

Oh shoot, sorry SS. And I used to live in LA too, near there. By bad! Off-topic: proportionately, why are there so many Iranian weight lifters? Same in Turkey, Greece even. Because it’s the manly thing to do for poor white people? Or clustering / historical accident?

37 Steve Sailer October 28, 2014 at 3:03 am

Certain body types are better for weightlifting, such as short limbs. That’s a pretty common body type in a wide swath of Eurasia centering around Iran.

In contrast, Dinkas from South Sudan tend to be elongated. They’d be terrible at weightlifting.

http://www.isteve.com/hof-sizedoesmatter.htm

Cultures that have a lot of the right body type for success in a particular Olympic sport tend to invest in that sport rather than in other, more futile sports, and thus develop a lot of expertise at sports where they are likely to win medals.

38 Ray Lopez October 28, 2014 at 5:04 am

@SSSS – no I think you are partially correct, thanks for the link. The Pocket Hercules on your webpage is from Bulgaria, and the Greek champ Pyrros Dimas was from nearby Albania, so your genetic focus is correct to a degree. But recently it seems the Chinese and North Koreans (which have a muscular build actually) are dominating the sport: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_World_Weightlifting_Championships which shows the power of institutions and not just genes.

39 @Bonobo October 28, 2014 at 7:25 am

@Ray Lopez, more specifically, the power of institutions to select people with the right genes.

40 Kamesh October 28, 2014 at 8:29 am

One thing as a person hailing from Andhra Pradesh which consists of Vijaywada, Visakhapatnam and until few months ago Hyderabad and Secunderabad when the state was divided. There is no other place in India where Math skills are as valued and to an extent Science subjects with Math ( Physics or Physical Chemistry) . It felt lopsided growing up when people as what is your score in math in exams rather than the total and that’s the only thing we cared about. Just look at the % of people from Andhra Pradesh in IITs. Things are changing however now and for better.

41 Eric October 28, 2014 at 4:09 pm

lol, please read that report more carefully, while india send lot of student here, most of them enroll in diploma mills.
“The top five destination schools of F-1 students from Hyderabad are institutions with no major research activity under the Carnegie classification system. The largest is International Technological University (ITU), a non-profit accredited Master’s Medium-Sized College with no research activity. Other top destination schools of foreign students from Hyderabad include for-profit Master’s Small and Larger Programs such as University of Northern Virginia (unaccredited and shut down by Department of Homeland Security (DHS)), Stratford University (accredited), Tri- Valley University (unaccredited and shut down by DHS) and Herguan University (unaccredited).”

42 JWatts October 28, 2014 at 4:31 pm

I don’t understand your post. You don’t need to go to a major research school to get a STEM degree. As to the accredited vs unaccredited, while many may not be getting good degrees, that argument is irrelevant to what type of degree they are getting.

43 Eric October 28, 2014 at 5:02 pm

lol, Read it more carefully buddy, two of the most popular schools for students from Hyderabad are discredited, they are here for the diploma, not to learn.

44 RPLong October 28, 2014 at 5:40 pm

So in other words, they are hear for the signal, not the human capital?

Okay, I agree. Now what?

45 RPLong October 28, 2014 at 5:41 pm

*here

46 JWatts October 28, 2014 at 6:29 pm

“lol, Read it more carefully buddy, two of the most popular schools for students from Hyderabad are discredited, they are here for the diploma, not to learn.”

Again, I fail to see how that is relevant to the actual topic under discussion. The post is about the percentages of STEM based foreign students from different cities. Even if it’s pure signaling, it still doesn’t change the numbers who are in a given program or the fact that they chose those particular majors.

47 Rahul October 29, 2014 at 2:02 am

Perhaps students from some cities are more likely to enroll in Diploma Mills?

48 Eric October 29, 2014 at 4:42 am

Call me old fashion, Don’t you guys think the last thing that a poor country like India need are some young people spending real money to acquire useless diploma from discredited Universities in USA?
New York Times had a great editorial about India great challenge:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/opinion/indias-youth-challenge.html?_r=0

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52 rec1man October 29, 2014 at 11:21 am

From Caste-name analysis of California National Merit Semifinalists, for the last 4 years, the winners list is as follows

South Indian brahmin = 35% ( 30% Maharashtrian )

Forward Caste Dravidian = 20% ( 75% Telegu )

North Indian Brahmin = 10% ( 50% bengali )

North Indian Merchant = 20% ( 50% – Jain, Khatri, Sindhi )

53 rec1man October 29, 2014 at 12:13 pm

Data Analysis of California National Merit list – 2014

Total 11th grade Indians = 5200
Total Indian winners = 350
Muslims = 10 / 600
Xtians = 10 / 600

Remaining = 330 / 4000

Patels = 10 / 600
Sikhs = 10 / 600

Remaining = 310 winners / 2800

Forward caste Dravidian ( 5% of Indian pop ) = 65 / 900 = 7% win rate

North Indian Upper Castes ( Brahmin, Merchant, Rajput, Kayasth /scribe ), ( 15% of Indian pop ) = 100 / 1000 = 10% win rate

South Indian Brahmin (1% of Indian pop ) = 125 / 600 = 20% win rate

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65 baofeng teardown November 5, 2014 at 5:50 pm

To me, the way he transforms difficulty into things of awakening.
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Now that you discover how it works, it is possible to listen for the sheer pleasure than it –
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66 prom.ua November 5, 2014 at 5:55 pm

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