Understanding the extent and predictors of college late departure

by on October 16, 2017 at 1:09 am in Data Source, Education | Permalink

That is a new and important piece by Zachary Mabel and Tolani A. Britton, here is the abstract:

Research on college dropout has largely addressed early exit from school, even though a large share of students who do not earn degrees leave after their second year. In this paper, we offer new evidence on the scope of college late departure. Using administrative data from Florida and Ohio, we conduct an event history analysis of the dropout process as a function of credit attainment. Our results indicate that late departure is widespread, particularly at two- and open-admission four-year institutions. We estimate that 14 percent of all entrants to college and one-third of all dropouts completed at least three-quarters of the credits that are typically required to graduate before leaving without a degree. Our results also indicate that the probability of departure spikes as students near the finish line. Amidst considerable policy attention towards improving student outcomes in college, our findings point to promising new avenues for intervention to increase postsecondary attainment.

Here are ungated copies of the paper. I take these numbers as implicit evidence for an “acculturation” theory of education, where close to the end of the process some people decide they don’t want to join the “people with a college degree community.”

For the pointer I thank the excellent Kevin Lewis.

1 mkt42 October 16, 2017 at 1:27 am

Interesting, some people at my college have instinctively been conjecturing that it may be more accurate and relevant to track students by credits accumulated rather than duration of enrollment, as these authors advocate.

OTOH, the late dropout phenomenon doesn’t occur at my college. The vast majority of students who fail to graduate withdraw during their first two years (measured by the calendar; measured by credits their dropout would occur even sooner, i.e. after accumulating less than half of the credits needed to grduate). So institutional characteristics (and student body characteristics) need to be examined before applying these findings to other colleges.

2 SpacemanSpiff October 16, 2017 at 1:48 am

This study should also look at student’s ability – or perceived ability, although that is a lot harder to measure – to pay.

3 Edward Burke October 16, 2017 at 11:29 am

Because some 40% of entering post-secondary freshmen now require remedial coursework simply to begin their post-secondary careers, something besides and other than mere student ability to pay fees and tuition costs might be addressed profitably.

4 liberalarts October 16, 2017 at 2:00 am

I am a college administrator with who is involved in various ways with student withdrawals. I think that much greater than the acculturation theory floated by Tyler is that closing the deal on a degree means completing the advanced courses in a major, and students floating at the minimum GPA to graduate often run into trouble with upper level courses. Open admission colleges likely have a greater percentage of underprepared students who fit this profile, as well as the cash flow point that SpacemanSpiff makes above.

5 Ray Lopez October 16, 2017 at 2:33 am

Against that, it’s well known towards the end of your degree the professors grade easier, so to not mess up your chances of graduation. All the people with “D” grades in my science major ended up getting better grades the closer they got to graduation. And this was a top 30 US university.

6 hamilton October 16, 2017 at 2:53 am

I agree with liberalarts. Also, Tyler is assuming (as the authors do) that having many credits puts one close to graduation. Especially for students at open admissions institutions (and those that accept transfers from community college), it is not unusual to have 75+ credits and yet be no closer to completing one’s (most recently) desired major.

Another thing the authors raise, which does strike me as more reasonable, is that there are students who can hack it in intro courses, but can’t handle upper division work. Again, especially for transfers from community college, students who could handle CC (but only just so) can make 75 credits, get to a 4-year, and get hammered. As an academic advisor at such a 4-year institution, I meet students like that fairly frequently. Wouldn’t surprise me if they’re elsewhere, too…

7 Matt October 16, 2017 at 7:31 am

My younger brother at least somewhat fits the description Hamilton sets out – he went for at least 3, maybe 4 years (though perhaps part time some years – it was easy to do at this school, which was also super cheap, so no strong financial incentive to finish on its own) but switched majors a couple of times, so while he had close to enough credits, they were not all in the right areas. The, he got a job as a police officer. This required him to have a certain number of college credits, but not to have actually graduated. The job paid fairly well (especially in comparison to crap jobs held as a student) but took a lot of time. It would be possible to finish, but it would take a lot of discipline, which wasn’t his strongest attribute. (See, above, about switching majors a few times.) He was, I think, essentially one semester of going full time and concentrated work from finishing his degree, but now with a reasonably good job, he couldn’t get himself to do it. I suppose that’s fine – he has a reasonably good life – but there are certain higher level administrative positions in the police that require a college degree, so those are closed for him, and of course if he wanted or needed to leave to do something else, not having a degree could hurt, even with lots of experience. He’s been away so long now that I’m not sure if he could actually go back and finish the degree just with the credits he needed before. I expect that something like this path is not extremely unusual.

8 CD October 16, 2017 at 2:44 pm

It’s easier to come back and finish a baccalaureate than people think, and in general people who are older, and disciplined enough to hold a job, are good students. (For one thing, being a grownup teaches you to plan more than a couple of days ahead.) I’ve taught a number of cops over the years and they have all done well.

Your brother’s experience illustrates another point. As long as courses are not super-expensive, I don’t think his story, even if he never gets a degree, is a sad story. He had choices, and he still learned stuff. Even if you know half of a given population won’t finish, I’m not sure (on good libertarian principles!) that it’s my place to tell someone they can’t follow their dreams. But with much higher tuition and consequent debt, it becomes ethically harder to encourage people to do this.

9 Matt October 16, 2017 at 7:16 pm

I mostly agree with this. There were some rules at the university as to how long a degree stayed “open”, in the sense that you could _just_ go back and finish the courses you had left, without doing more. I don’t know if that’s common or not, and how hard it would be to do what ever extra requiremets might be put in place. But, I agree that it’s not a sad story – he got a job he likes that provides for a pretty decent life, and he needed a certain number of college credits (*) to do that (about two and a half years worth, I think.) He also learned something there – better writing (which is actually pretty important for police officers – writing a clear report is an important skill, and it gets more important the higher you go), somewhat better discipline, some basic economic and statistical thinking, etc. And, given that it was really cheap, it didn’t leave him with a lot of (or any) debt. (This is, really, how most universities should be, for most people. It’s hard to run a “prestigious” university this way, but it’s better for most people.) Not finishing does close some potential options for him, so to that extent I think it was not an ideal choice, but certainly not a tragedy. (*) (time in the military could stand in for college credits, too.)

10 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 9:58 am


11 HL October 16, 2017 at 10:45 am

My experience with community college is that it is much much easier than a university. I felt as though it was easier than high school and that the teachers were there to be chummy and collect a paycheck. The difficultly level increased in university as GTA’s were teaching classes and had much higher expectations. As I progressed and took more classes with the old timers who had been there for decades the rigor took another deep dive.

This isn’t quite on the same topic, but from my peripheral knowledge of graduate departments I’ve gotten the impression that many who don’t complete their masters or phd are likely because they are nuts or have crazy family situations (possibly because they are nuts).

12 Skip Intro October 16, 2017 at 12:56 pm

I am a professor at a nearly open enrollment public university in a small city in the deep South. At my institution, there’s no doubt that upper division courses are a huge stumbling block for many of our students.

We are required by law to take an increasing number of community college/dual enrollment hours, and so many of those courses are of incredibly varying quality. More and more students come in as juniors by credit hours and still completely unprepared for upper division coursework. Many can’t achieve the requisite 2.0 GPA in major and therefore can’t graduate.

About 2/3 of our students are first-generation college students, and acquiring a college degree is very important to them and their families. The idea that “they don’t want to join the ‘people with a college degree community'” is exactly what someone who has never interacted with any of these young people might say.

13 CD October 16, 2017 at 2:22 pm

Ditto to all this. It’s indeed partly a consequence of state legislatures trying to raise the flow of college degrees. A marginal student following a 2+2 track can usually land in the upper division and find some courses to pass, but may put off courses like stats, or classes with substantial writing, needed to complete a major. As the paper reports a lot of students don’t understand requirements.

This is the opposite of the typical natural sciences model, which tends to be fairly brutal in the first couple of years, but supportive thereafter.

14 Just An Australian October 16, 2017 at 2:07 am

Also, I think that most students stick it out past the first let down on the basis (as encouraged by the parents) that it will get better, but as they progress, it becomes clearer whether it will or not

15 Steve Sailer October 16, 2017 at 4:19 am

More likely, a lot of people kick the can of hard required courses down the road until the last moment, then give up.

16 Just Another MR Commentor October 16, 2017 at 5:22 am

In my experience the harder courses are in the first couple of years when they tried to weed people out. The final year courses of my engineering degree were completely pathetic. I contemplated dropping out because they made me realize how much of my time and money the professors had wasted.

17 liberalarts October 16, 2017 at 7:03 am

Yes, and engineering students who get weeded out parachute down to easier majors and almost always complete a degree. The students we are talking about here are 800 SAT students (remember for every 1200 there is an 800 student on 1000 normed exam) with a 2.5 high school GPAs in majors where the intro courses are easier. They might decide to major in business and bomb required accounting, economics or finance courses. Or they might be Spanish majors who can survive the conversation courses but can’t pass the upper level literature courses where you have to be able to read and write about full length Spanish novels.

18 dearieme October 16, 2017 at 7:09 am

“can’t pass the upper level literature courses where you have to be able to read and write about full length Spanish novels”: which for me occurred in my last year of secondary school (though in French, not Spanish).

Why not just make the early courses tougher so that the students at least learn early that they are not up to it and so can avoid wasting years and wasting money?

19 yo October 16, 2017 at 7:24 am

That would reduce the # of paying students which is in no one’s interest but the paying students’.

20 Just Another MR Commentor October 16, 2017 at 8:42 am

Yeah EXACTLY. I really blame the universities here and its clear what the incentive of the schools are and shame on them. The first 2 years should realistically be the toughest so that students get an accurate picture of the difficultly level before shelling out more money/wasting more time. This is what they do in many hard science programs.

21 Slocum October 16, 2017 at 10:16 am

“That would reduce the # of paying students which is in no one’s interest but the paying students’.”

Yes, and at many universities, the lower-level courses are incredible cash cows — 300 student lectures taught by adjuncts and grad assistants.

22 Anon7 October 16, 2017 at 10:22 pm

Many universities are doing a lot of remedial work during the first year or two, so making courses more difficult early on would tend to defeat that purpose. Unfortunately, it is difficult to make up for many years of bad schooling, so it is not very effective. But because people have been told that a college degree is now required, students (pressured by parents) will tend to persist for a while regardless.

23 So Much For Subtlety October 16, 2017 at 8:12 am

Or they might be Spanish majors who can survive the conversation courses but can’t pass the upper level literature courses where you have to be able to read and write about full length Spanish novels.

I would be interested to know how many universities of colleges in the US require upper level students to read an entire novel in another language. Even if it is an easy one like Spanish. Not pretend they can, but actually do work at that level.

I would think it would be a handful. Maybe none these days.

24 Just Another MR Commentor October 16, 2017 at 8:43 am

I would say most of them. If the student is majoring in a foreign language literature courses are standard.

25 HL October 16, 2017 at 10:16 am

As a lazy foreign language literature bachelor’s graduate I can assure you that reading the English version at home and faking it in class is easy to do. There would be no way I could have gotten away with this as a graduate student. I wasn’t going for a masters so I just wanted to graduate as quickly as possible at that point. It was mostly because of Tyler’s reasoning, I didn’t like my fellow students or teachers very much and wanted to do stuff in the real world. I doubt I’ll ever use my foreign language knowledge as much more than light conversation and travel and I am ok with that.

26 zbicyclist October 17, 2017 at 11:51 am

Depends. In some fields you can put off the hard course requirements until the end. In particular, statistics courses in business and social science can often be taken late. Students who put these courses off to the end tend to be students who are some combination of afraid and unprepared for them and didn’t (in my experience) do nearly as well as students taking them early.

27 Pshrnk October 16, 2017 at 9:53 am


28 So Much For Subtlety October 16, 2017 at 5:15 am

They come for the drinking and the casual sex but can’t be bothered to stay for the requisite Math units?

29 Dick the Butcher October 16, 2017 at 11:08 am

Sounds about right. That and the fact that college campuses are mad houses.

30 Edward Burke October 16, 2017 at 11:34 am

These days, even the parentis are loco.

31 msgkings October 16, 2017 at 12:04 pm

But will they get off of your lawn?

32 Edward Burke October 16, 2017 at 12:58 pm

They’ll first encounter trouble getting onto a lawn I don’t have.

Let them trample instead the yards of the university chancellors and college presidents that are not coddling their little ones with all the care and attention due them, the poor little things.

33 mulp October 16, 2017 at 5:47 am

Almost all majors require several courses that are offered at most once a year, and in some cases every other year in smaller schools/departments. If you miss these courses, degree completion will require another calendar year.

And then there are courses required like composition, or art, or science, that even with science for dummies is reared by too many students.

The widow of a friend took a degree in physical therapy which accepted her English degree/life experience for Gen ed, but she needed classic mechanics (physics 101) which she feared. 90% was developed before Newton and the calculus is reduced to algebra, eg d=at^2. Even “calculus” physics involves almost zero calculus. So, I spent several weekends explaining the lesson like my professor who had worked on the bomb did: real world common sense problems. I remember his first class in the lecture hall with seats on risers: he jumped up on the lecturer lab bench and paced of vectors, and explaining everyone uses vectors to get to their car in the parking lot. She kept repeating she would never pass physics and she should drop out. Which was nuts because she could by that time name every bone in your body, to me, an impossible task.

After a quarter of the course, she scored near perfect on the examine and after passing the course with an A, admitted it was an easy class she could have passed 15 years earlier for her BA. I spent time taking classes at a community college in machining, welding, which in the degree requirements included science, recommended physics, but also composition. Very smart accomplished adults were cowed by those kinds of classes. The college had plenty of tutoring services and the instructors understood many of their students feared these subjects.

A 30 something student reseting his life ended up finding the pre-algebra math so enlightening his math instructor recruited him as a math tutor, which helped with his expenses. He occasionally commented on a success getting a student over that hump of understanding. Without it, they would certainly be dropouts.

I note many conservatives consider these course as useless requirements. Who needs to do math, read, write, form logical argument, think critically,…

34 So Much For Subtlety October 16, 2017 at 8:21 am

I note many conservatives consider these course as useless requirements. Who needs to do math, read, write, form logical argument, think critically,…

So you illustrate this interesting little claim with a long and boring story about a woman who wanted to be a physical therapist (I take it that is a polite word for a masseuse in the non-Harvey-Weinstein sense?) but who was put off by a pointless demand for calculus. Does it occur to you that this is a licensing requirement designed to make the course unnaturally hard and so drive down competition by restricting supply of qualified therapists?

Composition for welders, much less advanced mathematics, does look useless. Worse than that really.

However it is also a chance for indoctrination in the Leftist nonsense of the day. No doubt America is a better place for having machinists who understand the finer points of intertextuality.

35 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 9:02 am

Every now and then though, conservatives do drop quotes “against college.” Enough that:


36 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 10:08 am

“First, we should acknowledge what our own research has revealed: that a significant portion of the public, especially among lower-income families, believe that the economic value of higher education — that is, its return on investment — has fallen. This is, of course, untrue: The economic return on higher education, as the College Board’s 2016 “Education Pays” study reveals, has never been greater.”

I’m sure that the “return” on owning a luxury car has never been greater as well. Doesn’t prove anything.

37 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 10:20 am

That is a poor opinion that appropriate counseling could cure.

38 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 11:15 am

I’m sure you have much personal experience on the subject of counseling, doesn’t apply to the point made, which you haven’t addressed.

39 Art Deco October 16, 2017 at 9:44 am

So you illustrate this interesting little claim with a long and boring story about a woman who wanted to be a physical therapist (I take it that is a polite word for a masseuse in the non-Harvey-Weinstein sense?)

You take that wrong. There is some massage incorporated into physical therapy, but that’s a small part of the whole. The course of study for PT is quite extensive – over 100 credits plus internships.

40 Dick the Butcher October 16, 2017 at 11:14 am

She had to add that garbage to signal her virtue to her miniscule peer group.

41 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 9:00 am

I recently heard the recommendation that more bachelor’s students should just be given a 4 year schedule. The classes, in order, done.

That sounds like a good nudge, and that it could improve graduation and efficiency.

Let students opt out or reschedule, but only if they really care that much.

42 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 10:03 am

“I recently heard the recommendation that more bachelor’s students should just be given a 4 year schedule. The classes, in order, done.”

Is that not what they do now?

43 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 10:15 am

I don’t know of any college that says “welcome business major, show up for Math 100 at 9am, Monday. English 100 at 10am, etc”

They give a template for you to build against their class schedule.

44 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 11:21 am

Are you 16 years old or an adult who’s never been to college? I’m betting on a 16 year old.

45 NPW October 16, 2017 at 10:42 am

My college basically does something like this. It sets a plan to graduate in four years for every student and then badgers them incessantly to see that it gets done. However, it is a small engineering college that is backstopped by a business college. Full time undergrad attendance is somewhere around 1k, making this a more manageable task than at typical colleges. I have reservations about this being a useful template on a large scale with our current fusion of ideals.

There is also an unabashed focus on getting a job combined with incentives to graduate in four years. I don’t think we can have colleges that are both attempting to claim that they should not be viewed as a jobs training institution and seek government funding based on their perceived ability to generate career prospects. I think we need to divorce those who are being educated for economical reasons from those who are expanding their minds.

Those who have economical reasons can be judged on the merits of their case, just like all other financial transactions are done. Those who have less prosaic reasons for a college education should have to argue their case without the cover of those whose higher education serves to make them more employable. I just don’t see an honest conversation until we acknowledge that these divergent motivations result in differing results.

46 Art Deco October 16, 2017 at 6:28 am

A suboptimally large share of students enroll in post-secondary institutions (stoked by susbsidies, by the decay of secondary schooling, and by employment discrimination law), degree programs are padded by the inclusion of distribution requirements, and the array of courses available and scheduling of courses is done for the convenience of faculty.

47 Alan October 16, 2017 at 6:39 am


48 Engineer October 16, 2017 at 8:09 am


The “free college for all”, i.e. K-16, proposals will reinforce and further institutionalize all these problems.

49 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 8:39 am

On the bright side, we are apparently not dumbed-down to graduation for all.

50 Engineer October 16, 2017 at 10:18 am

I expect that’s coming. Cargo cult worldview. The leading indicators are increasingly apparent in high schools and colleges. Coming to a bar, medical, and structural engineering licensing exam near you.

51 rayward October 16, 2017 at 6:40 am

When two-year “junior colleges” were ascending back in the 1960s and early 1970s, the statistics for success and failure (if dropping out is a failure) were stark: less than 10% of students who started in a junior college completed the two-year degree requirements, but over 90% of those who did went on to complete the requirements at a four-year regular college. There are many ways to interpret the data. Typically it’s interpreted to mean that the 90% who started and didn’t complete the two-year degree requirements ought not have gone to college in the first place, or that the 90% of the 10% who did and went on to complete the four-year degree requirements were destined (by intelligence, discipline, etc.) to achieve success at the regular college anyway but circumstances (lack of resources, family obligations, etc.) prevented them from going directly to the regular college. It could be that success (at the junior college) begat success (at the regular college), success at the junior college providing the confidence and personal expectations (i.e., belief) for success at the regular college. That might be Richard Thaler’s explanation. Oddly, many of the junior colleges (later called “community colleges”) have been transformed into four-year regular colleges but with limited post-graduate programs. With advancing age time seems to move by so quickly, It’s easy to forget how long four years seemed when one was a late teen. I was in college during the Vietnam War, and many of my classmates were veterans of that War and, hence, somewhat older and far more mature. I don’t know the statistics, but surviving a war would make surviving the requirements for a college degree a mere walk in the park.

52 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 8:27 am

students with high school GPAs in the bottom quartile are 3 times more likely than top-quartile students to dropout late.

I hate to be harsh, but the fix is not to admit bottom quartile students. Do not channel these students to failure. Do not load them with pointless debt.

Draw a two dimensional graph of SAT and GPA. Find the line above which students have an 80% chance of graduation (rather than an appalling 60% reported here), and randomly select from applicants above that line.

That gives you a diverse and capable student body.

53 So Much For Subtlety October 16, 2017 at 8:38 am

That may be sensible and definitely capable, but it is not diverse (in the modern Supreme-Court-approved manner).

The students who will be concentrated below the cut off line will not be racially diverse. They will be more likely to be Black and Hispanic. Those above, White and especially Asian.

Universities must reach down to find enough “Diverse” students. Which means this is racially unjust as well. As Thomas Sowell pointed out a long time ago – putting minority students who are unprepared for a high level college into such a college means they will fail. With lots of debt. And in turn, the second tier colleges must look for even less prepared students to meet their quotas. Who will also fail. And so on all the way down the chain.

54 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 8:46 am

If it is not diverse in that way, it only shows where the emphasis should be. Parents should demand good grades of kids. And good SAT scores of kids and schools. Churches and community centers should run SAT prep.

School funding should meet a reasonable minimum, with federal assistance if required.

If we are serious about this we can run SAT score by ZIP code regressions to find the communities most and need, and do the K-12 intervention.

You do not need “race” to do broad preparation, to spot problems, or to achieve diversity.

55 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 10:11 am

Have you ever looked into whether your suggestions have been done, and what the effects were?

56 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 10:18 am

I don’t believe they have, because path dependence. We have a single US worldview. Colleges think they should “design” diversity, in part responding to federal law and court decisions.

57 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 10:09 am

“That gives you a diverse and capable student body.”

Diverse? LOL.

58 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 10:18 am

Randomness is underrated.

59 Ryan October 16, 2017 at 11:16 am

The joke is that “The line above which students have an 80% chance of graduation” is going to strongly favor very specific populations at the expense of others. This might be acceptable if it favored the “correct” populations; but unfortunately the Line, means of calculating the Line, and people calculating the Line are racist.

We should randomly select our university admissions from the entire set of applicants (adjusting for historical injustices committed to their ancestors) and fire any prof who fails a minority (which would be racist, of course) to ensure that all students have a fair chance of graduating.

60 Anonymous October 16, 2017 at 11:28 am

Some people might argue that for dumb racist or dumb SJW reasons. Stupid people unite, as it were.

But the bottom line is that sending people to fail is good for no one.

61 Trump Fan October 16, 2017 at 11:17 am

Didn’t see your clarification where you meant diversity in the literal sense rather than the common sense which is a code word for affirmative action.

62 Mike W October 16, 2017 at 10:18 am

At least the late dropout do drop out. My idiot grandson is going back to the state university where he received his worthless BS in Anthropology to get an MS in the same subject. He’s borrowing to do it.

63 Meets October 16, 2017 at 11:28 am

Classes don’t get harder.

I agree with the acculturation theory. The people I know who didn’t finish college struggle in “corporate” jobs that require a degree. They end up in service or other kinds of jobs.

They often realize that they will struggle in those jobs and drop out instead of postponing the inevitable.

64 Ralt Ight October 16, 2017 at 2:27 pm

They do if you save the hard ones for the last semester.

65 Floccina October 16, 2017 at 12:04 pm

Here are ungated copies of the paper. I take these numbers as implicit evidence for an “acculturation” theory of education, where close to the end of the process some people decide they don’t want to join the “people with a college degree community.”

Seems to that there were people who could pass everything but 1 or 2 classes and so end up stuck. An example would be the student who is required to pass calculus to graduate and tries it 3 time, failing each time and gives up.

Can anyone else corroborate this story?

66 Ryan Turner October 16, 2017 at 4:19 pm

My impression was that the gatekeeper courses were introduced early. In third and fourth year it feels like they want to keep you around, whereas first and second year calc is infamous for trimming class size.

A sufficiently motivated student missing one or two courses has a lot of options available. There are many hours of scheduled 1-on-1 tutor and professor time available per week, and frankly if the prof knows the situation they will make concessions.

I think in most cases a student knows they have “failed” by the end of second year but are unwilling to suffer the emotional and social consequences of leaving university. The university will let you hang around campus as long as the bill is being paid so it takes a few semesters for reality to set in.

Dropping out of university can be absolutely devastating for a persons confidence, even more so if they have never experienced failure before.

67 Butler T. Reynolds October 16, 2017 at 12:59 pm

I’m sure the reasons are endless, but one thing I wonder is how many students have a Plan B. Of the people I know who attended a cutthroat school like Georgia Tech, Plan B always turned out to be choosing an easier major. ( It would seem that a smarter Plan B would be to go to a more reasonable school so that you can get the degree that you actually want. )

Most 18 year old have an unrealistic Plan A to start off with, so Plan B is something they’ve probably not considered. When Plan A blows up, scrapping it altogether might be the only option they see.

68 Edwin Maldonado October 24, 2017 at 4:10 am

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69 istanbul anadolu yakası gezilecek yerler November 13, 2017 at 2:31 pm

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