Is optimism or pessimism correct?

I mean for the West, not for emerging economies.  Obviously we need to know future trajectories, and that is hard to do.  But try this simple question: since 2000 or so, have the predictions of the optimists or the pessimists come closer to being correct and insightful?

At a dinner party two nights ago, the unanimous opinion, even from the optimists, was that the pessimists had been doing better in the predicting game.  Of course, that does not mean the pessimists will be correct going forward.  The optimists might try these counters:

1. There isn’t much of a true structure period, so a bunch of correct pessimist predictions doesn’t mean much.

2. The optimists had the better predictions for the 1980s and 1990s.  Perhaps the sides simply alternate being correct every now and then.

3. The recent correct predictions of the pessimists are mostly noise.  Soon, optimistic predictions are likely to start being correct again.

4. Since 2000, the pessimists didn’t actually predict as well as you might think.  They failed to see how quickly the internet would spread, the power and reach of smart phones, and furthermore peace has continued, at least among the advanced economies.  GDP still grew.

I don’t see #1 as giving a huge boost to a structurally-rooted optimism.  Note that for #2, it is usually cheaper to destroy than to build.  They are not the bleakest scenarios either, but still a big comedown for the optimists, I would think.

#3 cannot be ruled out, but it’s not a huge amount of evidence for optimism either.  It does allow the optimists, however, to keep their structural models intact.

#4 runs the risk of “if this is what optimism looks like…”

I believe many optimists wish to invoke an inconsistent mix of #1 and #3.

I thank Veronique de Rugy for pushing me on this point in the conversation.

How much should the predictive ability of a group matter anyway?  People who are good at predicting may or may not be good at understanding.

Comments

No. Betteridge's Law, as always, makes it an easy call, even before reading the points.

1. 'Obviously we need to know future trajectories, and that is hard to do.'

Or, as memorably said by a non-economist, “It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”

2. 'Perhaps the sides simply alternate being correct every now and then.'

A bit less memorable, but certainly more folksy - 'Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.'

3. Ditto

4. At least a bit more substantial.

1 out of 4 seems pretty good in this case - though it remains hard to tell whether one should be optimistic or pessimistic about future insights.

If you're trying to figure out who to listen to based on their track record, combining everyone into the two categories "optimists" and "pessimists" seems like one of the worst ways to do it.

If things have been good lately, then the optimists have the better recent track record and you predict that things will keep going good. If things have been bad lately, then pessimists have the better recent track record and you predict that things will keep going bad.

You are extracting very little information from people's track records with this breakdown. Basically, you're just doing momentum investing.

I think what Tyler is saying is that the pessimists are still optimistic that they will be proven right, while the optimists are very pessimistic that they will be proven correct. I, personally, am very confident that they are all wrong.

I've never been one for predictions, since usually they're not any better than a coin flip anyway. Better to be in as good shape as possible and flexible for whatever the future brings.

Shiller was right on the housing bubble. But does that make him a pessimist? Similarly, when Buffett called out the tech bubble back around 1999, did that make him a pessimist? (For the latter, he's clearly an optimist on the country and the future)

Was Shiller really correct on the housing bubble? Prices are already past the peak of the 2006 crash across the country;
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA

The graph increasingly looks like more of a price increase trend broken by a severe recession, then resuming the previous trend.

Look at the rate of change, not just the levels. Prices today would have been achieved with no bubble and crash had the trend in the mid-90s continued. Instead, the rate of change rapidly increased and prices went too high too quickly.

5. Could also be a past reference difference: Similar future outlook with very different perceptions of the past. People that value newspaper crosswords of the past higher than current word games on a smartphone should appear more pessimistic.

If you find yourself in the top 10% of the income distribution then optimism is warranted otherwise probably not.

I declare you, sir JAMRC , the threadwinner! + 1 million

Avarice was once considered a deadly sin. Now it is a Facebook default.

I would submit that personal progress is a better measure, or if you have the empathy genes, everyone's progress or betterment.

And if there are no Pareto improvements, now what.

Who's the real pessimist now? What does everyone's progress even mean in a world with no potential Pareto Improvements...somehow I think "everyone's progress" means I should hold onto my wallet.

" There is no sadder sight than a young pessimist, except an old optimist "

-- Mark Twain 1927

The young are as likely to be pessimists as the old, just in different forms, the nihilistic goth vs nostalgic traditionalist.

Did anyone get crocked?

When the pessimists are right, the pain is shared broadly, but when the optimists are right, the benefits are shared narrowly. Thus, the paradox of felling pessimistic when times are mostly good. Richard Reeves, the author of the new book on the upper middle class (i.e., the top 20%), solves the paradox by using the law of averages: it's not the top 1% that 's doing great, it's the "average" household in the top 20%. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/opinion/sunday/stop-pretending-youre-not-rich.html? According to his calculation, the "average" household income of the top 20% is $200,000. So what's with the pessimism?

I appreciate what Reeves is doing here. We identify according to the tribe to which we belong. Never mind that the right-wing populists don't actually believe in the philosophy of republicanism, they identify with the Republican tribe. Similarly, someone at the bottom of the top 20% has about as much in common with someone at the top of the top 20% as I do with Bill Gates, but, hey, we are in the same tribe.

Actually, you two are in the same tribe and so am I. We don't have to wonder where the next meal, or the health insurance payment, or the mortgage payment is coming from. We don't have to make our wives shlep water several miles as their primary occupation. We don't have to worry about easily prevented diseases like measles and diphtheria. We don't have to walk uphill both ways to school. (I'll stop now but I could go on indefinitely.) We have it easier than 99.9% of the people who have ever lived.

Well ray, you certainly are a lawyer.

Mathematically this is 7th grade stuff.

The average of a set becomes less and less meaningful the larger the standard deviation.

Or, think about it this way: an average for each of the 4 quintiles 0-80 has many fewer orders of magnitude difference, (even the first and 4th quintile together) than the fifth does.

This should be obvious. The fifth quintile has no zero lower bound or upper bound. A guy makes 100k, a Facebook invester sells his stock and makes 2 billion.

An average of these two people is functionally meaningless.

The other way to look at this is to compare median to mean for each quintile and see how large the discrepancy is.

Nytimes is so far in the bullshit hole, you should never take what they say seriously until it's verified.

Potato Head: That was my point, that the "average" of household income of the top quintile is meaningless; no, those in the top quintile are not in this together even if Mr. Reeves wishes to identify them s members of the same tribe. As for the NYT, if you had read my link you would have known that it was a guest op/ed written by none other than Mr. Reeves.

Ray,

Entirely my fault, I did not read your follow up comment.

I apologize for making assumptions and acting in a condescending manner. Due to carelessness on my part. I'm sorry.

Cheers

A man on first, no outs, a .300 batter up. Pessimism, double play. Optimism, it's the 7th inning, down by one run. Pessimism, one strike. He is a .200 batter with one strike. Optimism, two strikes, he is a .450 batter with two strikes and two balls. A breeze out to left field. Change of pitchers to a lefty. He's a .300 batter with two strikes and three balls against this left hand pitcher.

Bang. Base hit up the middle. Man on first and third. Double play ending RBI.

Baloney. Every single person in the top 20% is making enough money to get by. You can't say that for sure about any other quintile.

What does it mean to get by??

People who predict well are well calibrated. They are optimists when they need to be and pessimists when they need to be, too.

To account for my own optimism, I've often cited the NYT article on GE transforming itself from an industrial juggernaut to a high tech startup. Well this story here (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/technology/delphi-the-auto-parts-supplier-embarks-on-a-high-tech-overhaul.html?) is even better. It's about Delphi, once the parts division of GM. I was drawn to the article because I once visited the enormous steering gear plant outside Saginaw. GM long ago spun off Delphi, and it's gone through tough times (including bankruptcy) but now it's transforming itself into a technology company that will supply the data, software, etc. for autonomous cars, the Cisco Systems of the autonomous car industry. Whether Delphi can pull it off is another matter, but this description of the business it intends to create confirms what I've said about the business that is the backbone for autonomous cars and why a company like Google is at the forefront:

"Delphi hopes to create a new business that can gather vast amounts of data from vehicles — about how and where they go, how they’re driven and how they’re running. The company then envisions selling insights drawn from the data trove to automakers, insurance companies and possibly even advertisers. A driver who frequently drives to Starbucks locations, for example, could be targeted with Starbucks coupons via email or text. Someone whose data shows a pattern of gentle driving could be offered lower insurance rates, said David Ploucha, the president and co-founder of Control-Tec, a start-up Delphi acquired for $124 million as part of this data business strategy. It’s a business model unlike anything the auto industry has ever seen. It’s similar to what Google does by targeting ads to users based on terms they have searched, or how Facebook tailors ads and news posts based on what a member has “liked” on the social networking site."

Here's the link to the NYT article about GE: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/technology/ge-the-124-year-old-software-start-up.html?

Having grown up in the Rust Belt and lived most of my adult life in Silicon Valley, your post hits home for me.

My Dad was a mechanical engineer at the Saginaw Steering Gear plant. We moved to Kokomo, IN when he got a job at Chrysler which was just down the road from Delco Electronics, which eventually became Delphi.

I was a software engineer, moved to the Bay Area, and at some point joined a startup. That startup was acquired and some of my engineers now work at Cisco, Facebook, and Google.

The company I'm at now is working on technology that can be used in autonomous driving applications. And I do see automotive research offices in Silicon Valley e.g. I work in Mountain View just down the street from the Toyota Infotechnology Center (and from Google). But I didn't realize the extent of the business transformation that could happen in the auto industry due to software.

I more than visited the steering gear plant. My client bought the former corporate offices of the lumber company that was once located in Saginaw on the Saginaw River. I won't identify the name of the lumber company, but being from Saginaw you know who I am referring to. Anyway, my client renovated the building and leased it to GM (Delphi was still a part of GM back then), which moved the designers from the plant to the office building. It was a fun project. My first meeting with GM, at the plant, was an eye opener for this southern boy. We met in an enormous conference room with a conference table that could seat 50-100 people. My client and I walked in and every seat at the table was taken. What in the world were all those people doing attending a meeting to negotiate a few points for the lease. With one exception, none of them said anything during the entire two hour meeting. Every visit I would stay at the old Montague (?) mansion on the river that had been converted to an Inn. A really fascinating experience I won't forget.

I think pessimists who cried over social security imbalances and debt in the 90's seem to be doing pretty badly. Even the pessimists were wrong on how messy the Iraq invasion was going to be. Many were pessimistic that Bin Laden could be taken out and sophisticated international terrorism stopped, but it more or less was (lone wolf local loser terrorism that ISIS likes to take credit for represents the decline of Islamic terrorism, hysterical Trump supporters not withstanding).

"sophisticated international terrorism stopped, but it more or less was (lone wolf local loser terrorism that ISIS likes to take credit for represents the decline of Islamic terrorism, hysterical Trump supporters not withstanding)."

Utter nonsense. Sure, in the West, it's mostly "lone wolf local loser" terrorism. It always was, 9/11 being the major exception. There's still "sophisticated terrorism" in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and in Syria and Iraq it moved beyond the terrorism stage to the outright war for territory stage.

Sophisticated is probably an incomplete word in this context. Call it sophisticated terrorism for an abstract ideological purpose. Ask what exactly was bin laden's end game or overall purpose? A utopianistic world-wide Muslim friendly state of some sort? Getting all Muslims to overlook their regional differences to unite against the West? The terrorism in the Middle East today looks pretty different from that. In fact it looks a lot like a guerrilla war where you have multiple factions killing people in order to secure as much local territory as possible. That's not good but at the end of the day it is more of a regional problem than a worldwide one.

What makes you optimistic about Social Security and government debt? Asking because I am a pessimist.

Well let's go back to say 1990. We heard a lot about impending debt crises....nearly 30 years since no evidence of one. Look at interest rates today, esp. long term interest rates. Any evidence of an impending default on Treasury debt or massive inflation to pay it off in a generation.

Boon,

I find it interesting that you point to the chicken little-esque pessimism over entitlements and terrorism as your examples.

Social security will empty out the trust in 2034. Then benefits will start to be cut, taxes will be raised, or the program will be means tested. That means for me, social security is indeed bankrupt. I'll either pay so much more in taxes that the program becomes even more net negative, I'll get even fewer benefits when the haircut happens, or I'll get zero under means testing.

Over 20% of the population is enrolled in Medicaid sometime during the year. Over 15% on Medicare. Over 14% on food stamps. Almost 4% on disability payments.

I suppose the question is what % of Americans should be wards of the state. Regardless, the entitlement state does not seem healthy to me. Pessimism justified.

International terrorism is mostly a side show. It won't mean anything really until Muslim population reaches 30-40% in European countries, and that is so far into the future it becomes meaningless to prognosticate.

Once a critical mass is reached the price of terrorism will fall dramatically as the odds of being caught go down/sympathetic jury pool if caught, supply curve will shift as Muslims have greater political representation and less need for crazies to turn to terrorism, hard to say which effect dominates.

I will bet this though, in the spirit of Bryan Caplan. Terrorism will increase every year as a function of Muslim % of population, until a point in time in which an Islamist political party is part of a coalition in parliament.

I'll bet 200 dollars per year against your 100.

Chicken Little....was once walking and an acorn fell on her head. She started saying "the sky is falling". She started to run to tell the lion. She meet Henny Penny who went with her, then Ducky Lucky. Finally they all meet Foxey Loxey and tell him the sky is falling and they must tell the lion.. Foxey says "sure, follow me I'll show you the way"....Foxey puts on his red "make the sky great again hat" and the three were never seen again. I don't think you remember the story.

Addressing your charges more specifically:
A while ago a man walked into a business and killed 5 people and himself. It made some national headlines but was quickly forgotten about because his motivation was not 'terrorism' but 'disgruntled worker'. How do we know he was a disgruntled worker, beats me since he isn't around to ask. Perhaps he had been fired from the job previously or got into a fight with his boss....but then how do we know maybe he wandered onto some ISIS pages and was getting all hot and bothered by it then got into a fight with his boss and decided to become a terrorist but he forgot to hit 'post' on his declaration of jihad? For that matter why does it really make a difference? People randomly shot because someone fancies himself a terrorist versus 'disgruntled worker' or just a lunatic who thinks UFO's are telling him to kill?

Let's imagine we decided it was unacceptable to have killings by 'disgruntled workers'. Perhaps we could ban or 'extreme vet' immigration of people who are employed. Perhaps we can have the FBI screen people's Facebook pages to profile people who carp about their job or their boss. Frequent readers of Dilbert might need an extra 24 hours of wait time before they are allowed to buy guns.

Sound silly? It is. More practically we might try to address 'disgruntled worker' killings with lower unemployment, easier access to programs to retrain or switch jobs, a better mental health safety net....but at the end of the day if we measure ourselves by 'disgruntled worker shootings'....it's probably going to be counter productive. They happen few and far between and by focusing on them it probably does nothing but create copycat effects. What is driving this last gasp of terrorism is media coverage, hand waving politicians and pundits who act like a single guy plowing into a few people with a car is equal to 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. It isn't and it is a fact of life that this is essentially 'noise' in a community of hundreds of millions of people. Point in fact, maybe a month ago or less someone was driving in Times Square and spun a U-turn and decided to ride up on the sidewalk plowing into the crowd at top speed until he ran into a vehicle barrier. One girl killed, dozens seriously hurt. No one cares much anymore since he had a history of mental illness and was allegedly high on drugs.

As Noah Smith pointed out "(this) wave will burn itself out. Being the 8th asshole to drive your car into a crowd is even lamer and less original than being the 3rd."

"Once a critical mass is reached the price of terrorism will fall dramatically as the odds of being caught go down/sympathetic jury pool if caught, supply curve will shift as Muslims have greater political representation and less need for crazies to turn to terrorism, hard to say which effect dominates."

You've already lost this bet then. Has the population of Muslims gone up or down in the UK since, say, 1990? Up I'm sure. Yet (https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/871406645221314562/photo/1). Sympathetic juries? Look even in majority Muslim countries people don't like to get blown up when they go to the mall. The one-off single attack terrorists of late come with no real agenda. They have a fuzzy concept of 'jihad' they signed onto but not one that makes any concrete demands that could be satisfied even if most people were willing to play along. Unlike the more clear demands of organized terrorism (no US troops in Saudi Arabia, Spain should pull out of the Iraq invasion, make Northern Ireland part of Ireland again), lone wolf terrorism is more akin to suicide....there is nothing practical the world can do and in reality the actor doesn't really want the world to try to do anything...in their mind the terrorism is the exciting finale to the 'play' of their life.

We've seen this before. We have had 'waves' of school shootings by kids who essentially are copying previous ones. Then they stop then out of the blue one happens again. The mass media focus on them when they happen creates a 'narrative template' for those seeking a suicide with lots of fireworks.

Organized terrorism was much more deadly but it's essentially over in the West at this point. No Muslim country will do something like the Lockerbie bombing again as it will produce nothing more than quick regime change. Al Qaeda can barely use the Internet without getting droned let alone coordinate a terrorist cell in a well planned attack. High profile places like airports and major cities have a lot of police and counter-terrorism forces on the lookout. If you want to worry about a big attack I would look out for what you're ignoring. For example, North Korea bringing a nuclear bomb into a 2nd level city, setting it up in a storage unit, getting the intelligent agents out of the country and then setting off. You are actually fighting the last war from 9/11/01, over 16 years ago so you will probably be looking in the wrong direction when the next thing smacks you. Recall Japan bombed Pearl Harbor because they thought taking out the US's battleships was the key to winning the war, when in fact it was the aircraft carriers that was the new essential element to naval warfare.

In terms of entitlement very few people are 'wards of the state'. You may forget this but the state actually did used to have 'wards' of people institutionalized 100% of the time. It wasn't an 'entitlement' in the traditional sense but it was a sort of safety net. You seem to think that anyone receiving anything is a 'ward' but the reality is 1000 people who get $200 a month is a pretty minor entitlement burden than 100 people who are getting 24-7-365 full institutionalized care by the taxpayer. Many people who get food stamps, for example, get only a trivial amount and also hold down jobs. Medicaid covers lots of people but does it cheaper then the private coverage many working people carry.

But more to the point, big picture, I'm not sure how the pessimists can tell us on one hand we are facing impending financial ruin from entitlements but a trillion dollars can be tossed away on a pointless war in Iraq and nothing bad comes from that except wounded vets? Or every time we get a Republican President we get another tax cut for the 1% that somehow doesn't cause any financial ruin. Yet your grandma with her $1500 SSI check and her Medicare card is the enemy of the people.

Wow. This is the most incoherent post I've seen by TC. Or maybe it's too-early-in-the-morning-so-I'm-stupid. Or perhaps I missed his (previous) list of "the optimistic and pessimistic predictions from 2000"? Apparently of the 10 comments, I'm the only one who has no idea WTF TC is referring to. I guess I should shut up. I find it is really hard to remember what I was thinking back in 2000; the four most notable things I've seen since then are:1. The pathetic knee-jerk white-eyed all-consuming *fear* from the US public and especially their elected representatives (I'd call them leaders, if they had any leadership competence, but not having that isn't new) after the Two Towers went down (despite ample prior warnings). 2. Fracking 3. The neurotic focus on economic equality 4. The dramatic decline in support for Freedom of Speech. If I were to add a 5th, it would probably be the slow decline in the "main stream" media's respect for the truth and substance over form. I wonder how many of TC's dinner companions were under 35? It seems to me that it must be nice living in TC's world, where truth is decided by consensus. Personally, I'm more interested in objective evidence, but of course arm chair punditry would be nothing without straw votes at dinner parties - no doubt said party was representative mix of (political) opinions from across the country/world. Still, the TC's OP seems devoid of substance: what predictions from 2000 is he talking about? Which prognosticators? and I have to ask: what is the difference between #1 unstructured and #3 noise? aren't they exactly equivalent? I'm left believing that TC should sober up prior to these early morning posts.

Let's use a bit of prophesy.

Jonah 3:1 The Lord said to Jonah a second time, “Go immediately to Nineveh,that large city, and proclaim to it the message that I tell you.” So Jonah went immediately to Nineveh, as the Lord had said. (Now Nineveh was an enormous city – it required three days to walk through it!) When Jonah began to enter the city one day’s walk, he announced, “At the end of forty days, Nineveh will be overthrown!”

The people of Nineveh believed in God, and they declared a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. (...) When God saw their actions – they turned from their evil way of living. God relented concerning the judgment he had threatened them with and he did not destroy them.

Was 'Forty days more, and Ninevah shall fall' a prediction, pessimism, or a warning? I'd say it's pretty clear it's a warning, and a useful one at that. Natural law has consequences attached to it naturally. If you lie, people will stop believing you (Sorry, CNN!) If you bully people, people will eventually fight back. If you borrow money you can't pay back, people will stop lending. If you become fat and lazy, eventually you will starve and learn how to work hard, or die. We've forgotten natural law, we've become decadent,

Too many policy wonks think that money solves problems, that material wealth is all that we have to worry about. We truly do live in a wealthy and materially prosperous time! It's foolish to deny this. I will not understate how amazing air conditioning, flush toilets, cheap transportation, goods from around the world, etc is. But money cannot replace the soul of a nation. The Social Justice Warriors trying to create the True Socialist Utopia are extremely comfortable materially. The Islamic terrorists tend to be middle-class looking for salvation. The division and destruction that is growing in our society is not the fault of Islam or Marx or Trump or whatever bugaboo you may have. It's that we've stopped caring about right and wrong. The era of post-truth politics will end one way or another - it can end like it did in the streets of Venezuela, where there's no glossing over the fact there's no food, or it can end by swallowing our pride and admitting when we're wrong and admitting when the other side may, possibly, at least in a parallel universe, have a point.

Forty days more, and the West will fall?

From my link below:

Roser says that pessimism also is an obstacle to freedom.

"Freedom is impossible without faith in free people," he writes. "And if we are not aware of our history and falsely believe the opposite of what is true we risk losing faith in each other."

I'm not exactly looking at this as pessimism or optimism, but rather natural consequences. If you jump off a cliff, you fall . I can't really call that optimism or pessimism. If a nation doesn't care about the truth but only about hearing its own voice, it will lose its voice and have the truth shouted painfully at it.

And, faith in each other? It's good to a point, but I'm not posting my SSN and bank account here. Nor would I advise you to post it, either.

I am also hung up on pessimists having been better predictors, unless it is of moods rather than events.

The world is getting better, but the central mystery of our time is how pessimism holds sway. The most obvious guess is that it is a Great Recession hangover ..

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-world-is-better-than-ever-charts-2017-1

Pessimists sound more intelligent than pollyannas at the cocktail party (do they still have cocktail parties?)

True, and even worse pessimism sells. "Things have never been worse. Only I can fix it. Ignore the crooked judges. Grant me power, like my buddies Duterte and Putin."

Anon, shrug, Anonymous, whatever your new name is,

You're a liberal. This would never fly in your own house. "Things are great guys/gals/nonbinary folks!! GDP is up over the last 50 years! Yes, that's because millions of brilliant women entered the workforce looking for $$$!! And brilliant minorities were stuck in racially divided neighborhoods and acted as leaders and examples. So yeah now our schools are shitty. Now minority achievers are part of the UMC and don't give a shit about their lesser brethren. Their kids go to Exeter, meritocracy achieved!!

Oh by the way, people that graduate from high school are now competing with China, Indonesia, and Vietnam! Fought in Vietnam? Well, your kid is going to lose his auto parts factory job because the sons of the man who killed your friends will do it for 10% of the wages. America!!"

Now I do agree with all of this. Meritocracy is real, see Asian immigrants. Enough said. Limiting freedom to increase overall utility is morally wrong. We shouldn't hold brilliant minorities back because they help communities retain functionality and leadership. That's not the role of government. And Vietnamese people deserve to win that job if they'll do it for 10% of the wage. Of course, due to economics he will gain and an American man will take a job at Walmart and the entire area will decline in productivity.

Utilitarianism demands sacrificing the poor of our own "country." They had their chance. Country is meaningless anyways, in a globalist worldview. Those Vietnamese need our business more than an asshole trump supporter in Ohio. Plus he's like, bad, and likes gun rights, and , like, he posts on Facebook about losing his job, etc

I can't speak to Anonymous's state of mind, but "things suck and I need to be put in charge" is a pretty bi-partisan angle at grabbing power. It's the fundamental argument of every challenger.

"The world is getting better, but the central mystery of our time is how pessimism holds sway."

Maybe it's because optimists are always moving the goalposts. Saying we're going to have X, Y, and Z, and when the predictions fail, saying "oh look, GDP is up."

I did not play the "unspecified predictions" game. I linked to real data on progress. There are many other examples, including book length treatments like:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UDCNI2M/

Or even more charts:

http://www.businessinsider.com/charts-that-will-restore-your-faith-in-humanity-2013-5

Your data are gay.

I never lost my faith in humanity. But I'm starting to wonder about American voters, and now British voters.

First line of the article:

"I mean for the West, not for emerging economies."

My third link focuses more on the USA. Aggregate stats are good there too, and this is more mood reinforcing mood.

Most of those charts start in the early or mid 20th century and show trends where most of the heavy lifting was done before 2000. This isn't helpful in a discussion of the last 15 years. Showing that US homes all had electricity by 1960 tells us nothing about the 21st century.

Put up or shut up.

Here's three stories I found with a couple minutes of Google:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/96530338/

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/20/health/life-expectancy-decline-mortality.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/491240/

"Put up or shut up."

"Anonymous" will probably do neither.

Here is the mistake: pockets of despair should be addressed, but they should not be confused with a decline overall, for the median citizen or voter.

Overall life expectancy goes up, but yes there is an opiate problem, etc.

Yes, the millennials got wolloped by the Great Recession, but the Great Recession is over, etc.

"How much should the predictive ability of a group matter anyway?"

Phil Tetlock's 'Good Judgement Project' explored this in depth and found that groups were often superior to individuals in predicting.

Tetlock is also a stickler for falsifiable questions.

Forget who is "right", I care which is useful.

Technology and globalization intensified success. Get it right and the benefits are enormous.

But it's getting harder to add value. The lowest hanging fruit are plucked.

But there's new possibilities. The internet and YouTube and Google and Coursera and AWS and Amazon (and very low interest rates) have made possible things that could not be done before.

Most attempts to create a great business or technology or art will flop. But the ones that succeed will really hit. To work your way through the failure, you need to be optimistic.

Silicon Valley is the example here. Most of what they do is ridiculously foolish. But they tolerate failure and swing for the fence. Now Silicon Valley is the epicenter.

Now is not the time to be timid. Now is the time to be brave.

Obviously, we'll just have to wait and see whether "panda-on-a-stick" becomes a worldwide culinary fashion:

http://fictionaut.com/stories/strannikov/when-not-laughing-fortuna-only-smiles--2

(Who knows? Maybe "koala burgers" or "barbecued koala" will become a hit sooner or later.)

1. Who were the 'pessimists' in 2000 and what were their precise predictions??

2. I'm not seeing any sense in your remarks that what counts as a good outcome for one faction counts as a bad outcome for another. The optimists on one side offer the predictions of the pessimists on the other.

3. Your dinner guests are peculiar. Go back and read what Nouriel Roubini was writing in 2008 or what the 'peak oil' thesis peddlers were saying in 2005. Read Stanley Kurtz ca. 2003, predicting a North Korean nuclear device would destroy and American city 'ere long.

4. Half a generation ago, Robert Bork offered that the appellate courts had succeeded in destroying constitutional law as an authentic intellectual subdiscipline. That was certainly a dour view of affairs. The degree to which the Democratic Party has turned the Department of Justice into a crooked lawfare operation and the eagerness with which federal judges co-operate with their schemes might have surprised even judge Bork. I'm almost certain not one person at the moderator's dinner table is the least bit perturbed by this.

Art,

That's bad form. You cannot ask for facts. You cannot communicate facts. Facts give them rashes.

Regarding your #4: 7 June 2017: President Trump names 11 sterling, conservative Federal judges. Andrew Klavan, "[W]with the Supreme Court taking on the role, as it has, of super legislature, all it requires is five idiot intellectuals who believe in leftist crap for us to lose the right to speak free — which, let’s face it, is inseparable from the right to live free.

"Because Trump is what he is — and because of what he is not — we have preserved that precious right for another day. For that alone, he deserves our thanks and support."

This post is like an example of poor and uninspired teaching. Create a false dichotomy and let people argue about which of the two hypothetical poles is more correct. People love a debate so they will jump right in. They may even think they are learning to think critically and that they come away with some insights. Who knows, that may even be true. But there is damage done. It is a lazy way of thinking and it breeds yet more extremism. I thought economics was about tradeoffs - everything is a matter of degree and careful analysis or thinking does not lend itself to declaring "optimists" or "pessimists" winners. Who are they anyway? I am optimistic about some things in some circumstances and pessimistic about other things or in other circumstances. The labels don't help.

We seem to be entering into a time when politics is volatile, difficult to predict. (Brexit; Trump; UK election yesterday; etc. See also Turchin's writings.)
Political volatility usually negatively impacts economic growth. (Money hides from risk so growth opportunities lost.)
Pessimism in the near term will turn out to have been more predictive.

It's pretty well established that we overvalue our losses in relation to our gains. It's not clear to me that the perceived superiority of optimists isn't due to overvaluing losses. Also, it could be that the things the optimists are right about will turn out to be more important that the things the pessimists were right about. When comparing predictions, how do you determine which predictions to include in the comparison, and how to weight them?

How could anything not seem like a downer after the 90s?

For the period from 2000 to 1017, optimists were:

Right about "peak oil."

Right about global warming.(See predictions made around 2000 about all the horrible things that were supposed to happen by now but haven't.)

Right about the continued decline of crime.(Uptick around 2015 notwithstanding.)

Right about most of the teen sex/drugs/bullying moral panics. Surveys show teenagers are less likely to report having sex, doing drugs, drinking alcohol, or getting in fights. See this article:

https://www.vox.com/a/teens

They were also right about teenage pregnancy.

Right about inflation.

Pessimists were:

Right about productivity growth.

Right about the housing bubble.

Right about the failure of the Iraq invasion and "democracy in the middle East" more broadly.

Right about the Euro.

Right about the "achievement gap." Few made solid predictions about it, perhaps because many of those who profess belief in the egalitarian explanation don't actually believe it. One prediction was made in 2003 by Sandra Day O'Connor, that affirmative action would no longer be necessary in 2028. Given that the case concerned a law school, someone who is 22 when he applies in 2028 will be 11 now, given how well test scores at age 11 predict future academic performance, this prediction isn't looking good.

Right about "race relations." The "post racial society" many Obama fans hoped for around 2008 is seem by the Left as naive at best and 'racist' at worst.

Right about political polarization.

Right about drugs. See the heroin epidemic and the contributing factor of doctors' widespread opioid prescriptions. People say the drug war has failed, how is "focus on treatment, not incarceration" working out?

Right about the obesity epidemic. It has gotten significantly worse since 2000, with a majority of states in 2010 being fatter than the fattest southern states were in 2000, see this gif:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/04/obesity_in_america_cdc_releases_gif_of_epidemic_over_time.html

On the other hand, it has yet to actually reduce life expectancy, with the recent small reduction clearly explained by an increase in drug overdoses. Is it really as unhealthy as they say?

Right about the lack of miracle cures for diseases. They will try to move the goalposts, pointing to improved survival rates for certain diseases. Those aren't cures.

Right about the continued increase in costs for education and healthcare.

Right about the decline in labor force participation.

Others are a mixed bag, for example, international development. Optimists love to cite the decreasing global poverty, but no one except a few peak oil/catastrophic global warming loonies actually predicted that there would be more global poverty. The debate, circa 2000, was about whether the third world would be on a path to converge with the first world or not. On this the data shows that the optimists were right on China and (most of) Eastern Europe, the pessimists were right on Africa, and Latin America and the rest of Asia are arguable.(I would argue that they will reach and remain in the middle income trap.)

Islamic Terrorism, too, is a mixed bag. Certainly there has been nothing like another 9/11. But Islamic radicalism has advanced relative to it's position in 2000, in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, and among the Palestinians. Also, if you predicted in 2000 that there would be this almost unimaginably horrible act of terrorism in America the next year, but none comparable in the sixteen years after, would that be an optimistic or a pessimistic prediction? Remember the "peace dividend?" The "end of history?"

Again, who was predicting 'miracle cures' in 2000? For that matter, who was predicting the Arab world would have a political landscape as congenial as India's? (Do not answer 'William Kristol', because he was not saying that in 2003). Has anyone in the last 30 years put their money on a convergence of African and occidental living standards?

"Again, who was predicting ‘miracle cures’ in 2000?"

Me in 2002 and Ray Kurzweil in 2006 in an op ed. (I hadn't heard of Kurzweil about from Kurzweil keyboards until 2004, and he made this prediction in 2004 in The Singularity is Near). Kurzweil wrote in the Philadelphia Examiner:

"By 2019, we will largely overcome the major diseases that kill 95 percent of us in the developed world, and we will be dramatically slowing and reversing the dozen or so processes that underlie aging."

My 2002 prediction emailed to a few friends and family: "Because of Moore's Law and its impact on medical research, deaths from major diseases (cancer, heart disease, diabetes , stroke) will be slashed by 2020 relative to rates in 2000 from effective pills (cures and prevention) and much better detection."

By "slash", I meant over 80%. Deaths from heart disease and stroke have been slashed since 2000. Cancer is down about 15% - no slash. But I still have three years to go. Kurzweil will probably be off by 5 to 7 years but there has been significant progress in stem cell therapies, cancer therapies and a lot in heart disease that is coming over the next several years. Those health pills are also clearly coming and the results of an early version, NR (a vitamin B3 derivative that Cowen frequently mentions here) will be out this summer.

"apart from Kurzweil keyboards..."

By “slash”, I meant over 80%. Deaths from heart disease and stroke have been slashed since 2000. Cancer is down about 15% – no slash. But I still have three years to go.

What Richard John Neuhaus used to say: "I'm pretty sure the death rate will remain at 100%".

What I think you mean is that morbidity is such or will be such that life expectancy will improve. And it has, and in ways not altogether attributable to improved sanitation. Life expectancy at birth has increased by about 8 years since 1970 and life expectancy at age 65 has increased by about 4 years. Re cancers, the ratio of annual deaths to annual diagnoses was 0.63 in 1970 and it's 0.37 today (in this country). This is quite rapid by historical standards, but with the exception of the rise and fall of AIDS, none of it was particularly dramatic in real time. I don't know why anyone would guess it would be.

Have a citation?. As far as I can tell deaths from heart disease is down by about 40% and that is attributed to a decrease in smoking as much as to breakthrough drugs.

I didn't mean that heart disease was slashed 80%. I accidentally used my standard for my prediction by 2020 (80%) with the common idea (40%+).

There have been improvements in heart disease but the big changes are coming quite soon, within 2 to 5 years with new drugs and stem cell therapies.

The largest study for heart failure that is expected to begin early next year is for over 500 patients based on previous successes.

"There have been improvements in heart disease but the big changes are coming quite soon, within 2 to 5 years with new drugs and stem cell therapies."

It seems to me that the big potential for improvement is in wearable diagnostics. It should be possible within...the next 5 years...to have a wearable continuous EKG for under $200. That would catch huge numbers of people with artery blockage who don't realize it.

P.S. Maybe we'd also need blood pressure or some other indicator:

https://myheartsisters.org/2014/03/30/ekg/

Art,

The point is the optimists never told us that Islamic terrorism would be a fundamental security issue at home. We could care less if they decide to go whacko abroad.

What we were never told is that it would be the increasingly dominant security issue of our time. Yes, it means nothing now. We have to wait for demographics to pull the trigger.

Pessimists were right about the euro?

It still exists - those betting on a failure or train wreck have been disappointed. Of course, things still can change fast.

Tyler's talk in Italy ~5? years ago is still relevant to those hoping for a euro cratering.

those betting on a failure or train wreck have been disappointed.

I'd call the PIIGS a train-wreck.

Why would you think that people who are good at predictions don't understand the underlying probabilities? What is your idea of how that would work? Are they oracles receiving wisdom from Apollo?

Call me a pessimist; the best and the brightest, the highly educated spend their time trying to create two more tidy little slots to categorize the world. This tells me that the best and brightest have too much education for their limited minds.

It isn't the predictions that matter it is the response. Who is right? For example, if you connect a device to the internet you are exposing yourself to every crook and manipulator in the world. If you connect a device to the internet you have access to services, products, information and communities that were simply impossible without.

Both are right. So you keep your system up to date, don't click on Podesta traps, and enjoy the communities and services.

If I don't get my crews out of the shop tomorrow morning, organize things, pay bills, I will lose money. If I do what I do every monday morning, I make money. It isn't Pessimism or Optimism.

A commercial building that is new, everything working will require every system, from the flooring, roof, mechanical, lighting, the doors, everything will need to be replaced over the next three decades. I can make predictions that are not optimistic or pessimistic; they simply are.

The Pessimists will be right if you ignore their warnings. The Optimists will be right if you pay attention to the pessimists and correct course.

The question to me is always "why"? What were the underlying assumptions of optimists or pessimists, and was either group right, when they were, for the right reasons? Or did they benefit from being a broken clock?

I'm optimistic about the west, or at least the US, because we have a dynamic market-based economy that is unlikely to experience another crisis anytime soon (assuming our politicians can handle the debt limit and other basic governance--maybe not a trivial assumption). That the recovery from the 2008 crisis has been so slow should not be surprising, but those extrapolating this slow recovery far into the future likely suffer from recency bias.

Culturally I am optimistic because we remain a large and pluralistic society with plenty of room for many cultures to flourish. I went to a country music concert on Friday and gay pride parade on Saturday. There was more in common between the two experiences than different, and both felt somehow uniquely American.

My optimism about America may imply that I am pessimistic about Europe. Much depends on europe's ability to maintain social cohesion while developing a culturally pluralistic identity. Early signs are not great, but the thought of intro-European war seems unthinkable so we must acknowledge much progress so far.

I fail to even begin to comprehend how one could declare things have not gotten better. Sure, some things have gotten worse. And if you really pervert the meaning of words some things haven't gotten better as fast as before or as we had hoped.

But over the last 200 years, the last 100 years and the last 20 years we have seen historically unprecedented (indeed absolutely jaw dropping) improvements in:
Lifespan
Health
Infant mortality
Survival rate after getting disease and likelihood of getting disease
Quality of life especially when older
Tobacco use
Freedom
Reductions in violence
Peace
Labor productivity
Escape from impoverishment
Per capita incomes/standard of living
Sanitation/Cleanliness
Pollution per capita (esp indoor air quality)
Energy use per capita and energy efficiency
Speed, safety and efficiency of communication and transportation
Human interconnectedness
Literacy
Numeracy
Education
Egalitarianism and equality of opportunity
Subjective Well Being
Human rights
Hours worked/leisure balance
Hours worked in home
Science
Technology
Slavery
Civil unrest
Global income inequality

Those are just on the top of my head, and anyone even casually familiar with this topic is aware of countless graphs and charts to back these up. And despite rumors to the contrary on a global level the big gains have come in the past 20-30 years, especially in the emerging states, many of which are now "emerged." A billion people emerging out of extreme poverty isn't something we should sneeze at.

I am not suggesting that the modern era has no problems, crises or catastrophes. But every era has these. The question is how so many people have forgotten about the problems of the 50s, 60s or 70s. We got Trump, they got Vietnam.

But according to the OP, the pessimists were right?

To quote from my teenage Grandson.... "Um, Like whatever."

You must have missed the part where he's comparing 2017 in America(not the rest of the world) to 2000(not the 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s.)

Which factors got worse in America since 2000?

I see wealth, income/standard of living adjusted for inflation, lifespan, health, infant mortality, cancer, tobacco use, carbon footprint per capita, energy use and efficiency, education, science, technology, and crime as all improving overall during the past two decades.

I see bureaucracy, tribalism, and various measures of social capital (trust, marital rates and such) as getting worse. In addition I see a huge correlation between the pessimism peddlers and bureaucracy, tribalism and the undermining of social capital.

Sorry about the above list it smashed it into one paragraph without punctuation.

Let me clarify

Lifespan.

Health.

Infant mortality.

Survival rate after getting disease and likelihood of getting disease.

Tobacco use.

Freedom.

Peace.

Labor productivity.

Per capita income and standard of living.

Escape from poverty.

Sanitation and cleanliness.

Pollution (esp indoor air quality).

Energy use and efficiency.

Transportation and communication speed, safety and efficiency.

Literacy.

Numeracy.

Subjective well being.

Egalitarianism and equality of opportunity.

Leisure time per week/ hours worked.

Hours worked in the home per week.

Science and technology.

Civil unrest.

Slavery.

Global income inequality.

Hopefully it formats better this time....

I was healthy and strong when I was 33. I am not 33 anymore.

All the advances you list can be reversed in less than a generation. The question that was asked is how has this generation from 2000 on done in maintaining the progress?

Can be reversed? So the pessimists are now correct because they may get worse in the future similar to your strength? In general, pretty much all these factors have continued to improve this generation in developed nations, though at a lower rate. The trend certainly is not downward on many.

So what is your point again? The pessimists are right because the rate of improvement in the west is slowing? Way to redefine the goalposts.

The last generation has seen more gains at a faster rate than any time in the history of life. Perhaps the pace of improvement (as is usually expected in a technology S curve) has slowed in the west, but in total the pessimists were about as wrong as can be.

"Optimist" or "pessimist" are just labels for the way in which one set of values or another judges the desirability of some predicted future state. I doubt the conversation was that interesting simply because of a lack of competing value sets. Here are some predictions. Based on how someone describes any single one of them as "optimist" or "pessimist" one can pretty much guess how they will describe the others as well as their tribal political affiliation:

1, "The gutters shall flow crimson with the blood of slaughtered bureaucrats and parasite academics."
2. "Anthropogenic carbon emissions shall decline by half as the world human population declines by three-fourths ushering in a highly egalitarian hunter-gatherer society."
3. "US GDP increases, immigration declines, national debt declines, average wages increase, carbon emissions increase."
4. "The Supreme Court annuls the election finding that the Russians hacked the results and based upon the popular vote declares Hillary Clinton to be the President retroactive to Trump's inauguration."

I was surprised not to see a reference to Matt Ridley's book Radical Optimism (https://www.amazon.com/Rational-Optimist-How-Prosperity-Evolves/dp/006145205X) on this topic.

Because I assumed someone would mention it.

Ridley is the man. Just read the book.

Is life better now that it was fifteen years ago? If so - the optimists were right.

The irony of pessimism is that it is always directed at things that are dreaded but that are beyond the control of the pessimist. In the meantime almost all of us, including pessimists, are working at trying to make our personal little corner of the matrix better.

Good point. Also, pessimism makes you sound smart, optimism makes you sound naive. Even if it's generally the correct stance.

Both stances lead to inaction.

The optimists are out doing stuff do you don't usually hear from them. The world is going to hell in a handbasket crowd are the ones naval gazing and sharing all their depressed thoughts to all and sundry.

Personally I am a short term pessimist, medium term optimist and long term pessimist. Short term because I can't believe how stupid the electorate are in so many countries recently. I guess I continually forget 50% of the population have below average intelligence.

Medium term optimist because of the technology revolution that is happening in so many areas, including electronics, medicine, space, energy and so on. The idea we are in some kind of technological stagnation just seems ludicrous to me. And the pessimists keep getting this wrong.

Long term pessimist on the human race, we will get strong AI probably before my son is old, and I just don't see how the human race will survive that.

Obviously neither.
The goal should be to make as accurate predictions as possible - not to bias one's views in optimistic or pessimistic directions. Can we call the third option "realism" or something?

"I mean for the West, not for emerging economies. Obviously we need to know future trajectories, and that is hard to do. But try this simple question: since 2000 or so, have the predictions of the optimists or the pessimists come closer to being correct and insightful?"

Optimists and pessimists about what? The economy? (And what about the economy...growth, unemployment, inflation?) Or global thermonuclear war? The price of energy? Quality of TV shows?

It’s extremely tough to say if this is exactly correct. As a trader, I really not worry too much because I know I just need to do my stuff right. It is what enables us to perform and generate better results. I feel highly comfortable with broker like OctaFX given they have outstanding set of tools from tight spreads, fast execution, deposit bonus up to 50% and day to day market updates, insights and more to help up with working nicely.

"2. The optimists had the better predictions for the 1980s and 1990s. Perhaps the sides simply alternate being correct every now and then."

Is this true or does it depend on our choice of words? The early stages of a credit expansion that destroys capital as it encourages malinvestments can look like prosperity and genius even when it undermines the foundations of future prosperity. It may be helpfult to define what the definitions are. Do we prosper by eating our young because we chose to borrow from their future? If we do, does that mean that the optimists were right in the 1980s and 1990s?

My argument is a simple one. I argue that the pessimists have carried the day because regulations have exploded and the growth of government has pushed us towards bankruptcy in all Western nations. For the optimists to win, we would have to fire 90% or more of federal government workers BEFORE they break the system beyond repair. Do voters have the courage for that?

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