Let’s stop calling it “voodoo economics”

I have lived in Haiti my whole life, there is no demonic energy. Instead i believe Haiti is filled with mystical energy and its clear with the vibrant culture we hold dear to our hearts. ALSO Voodoo is not a demonic religion. To give thanks to your ancestors is beautiful

That is from Aurélie Wulff.  And here are Vodou Sacred Sites of Haiti.

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Voodoo economics is benevolent everything for nothing religion, land of plenty created by the invisible hand.

No labor involved. No cost to pay. Endless free lunches.

Heaven on earth. Eternal life. No debt service, ever.

Far better than evangelical Christianity with hell and brimstone at every turn.

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There is no way that anyone is going to call it hoodoo economics these days.

Though vodou would likely add a touch of creole class, in the eyes of a certain sort of artistically minded status seekers, who enjoy much of Haiti's cultural heritage.

And this book almost sounds interesting in the sense that anyone would ever use the term hoodoo in connection with economics - "Hoodoo Economics: On Management Gurus and Magical Black Men in Postmodern American Culture

One of the most striking developments attending the emergence of corporate culture management theory has been the proliferation of so-called management gurus. In contrast to management consultants, management gurus generally work alone, providing dramatic performances to audiences of managers for high fees.2 The term “guru” itself is telling: a Sanskrit word that first appeared in the ancient Hindu Upanishads as a synonym for “teacher,” it gained currency in the West in the 1960s as Eastern mysticism became popular.’ While it is now applied in many fields to individuals with exceptional knowledge, it retains its implication of supernatural forms of wisdom. As business scholar Brad Jackson explains:
Compared to the drab scientism imbued in the term ‘expert,’ the word guru connotes a mystical dimension which implies that the expertise has been gained by other than conventional means and is, therefore, infinitely more interesting. Its links to the underground world of religious cults also lends the term a certain sinister power.

They call them "gurus" because it's easier to spell than "charlatans".

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Wait - so the Reagan Tax cuts and winning the Cold war didn't produce the prosperity in the 80s and 90s?

We would have been better off staying with the Carter plan?

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Has the voodoo in Haiti diverged much from that of those who remained in Benin?

Is it like Christianity where the timeline of even small branches looks like a public transport map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scotland#/media/File:Reformed_Scots_Church_Denominations.svg) or is it fairly unstructured and organic? My knowledge is pretty lacking.

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Let's stop calling it "Zombie Economics" too.

Zombie-Americans, being a historically marginalized group, are owed at least this much. We shouldn’t perpetuate stereotypes of them.

Good point, we could at least wait until they're dead to honor them.

Then we'll exalt them with statues, but immediately tear them down again.

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I am a National Geographic photographer and cultural anthropologist specializing in the study of pilgrimage traditions and sacred sites around the world. Here are the photographs and writings I did about the Vodou sites in Haiti: https://sacredsites.com/americas/haiti/vodou_sacred_sites_of_haiti.html

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It appears the reason to stop calling Reaganomics 'voodoo economics' is that voodoo and its believers do not represent merciless demonic evil.

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To give thanks to your ancestors is beautiful

So is the Straussian reading that Tyler is sick and tired of BLM bringing down statues?

Or is it the more obvious Straussian reading that George H. W. Bush is an Evil Nazi Who Must Be Cancelled!

To be clear, you can only give thanks to your ancestors as long as they weren't white.

Or they are not the SS, they are not Stalinists, they are not Saddam. Yeah, you got it right, Nazi.

https://www.google.com/search?client=tablet-android-samsung&sxsrf=ALeKk01o35diz8YVUrRTPxAeLyaN2PHYYQ%3A1593530067563&ei=01b7XpL8IYOx5OUP5uyAsAQ&q=lenin+statue+fallen&oq=lenin+statue+fallen&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAM6BAgAEEM6AggAOgYIABAHEB46BQgAEMsBOgYIABAWEB46CAgAEBYQChAeOgUIIRCgAToHCCEQChCgAToECCEQFVDDKFjEMGDFM2gAcAB4AIAB3QKIAZESkgEFMi00LjSYAQCgAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#imgrc=9Ug0ifO62rzpxM

https://www.google.com/search?q=saddam+statues&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=ivsn&sxsrf=ALeKk02dRJdo4BnzCxDcw5LuX9YA9pTfLQ:1593530106756&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAvc6f6qnqAhUqHbkGHa7tDSkQ_AUoAXoECC0QAQ&biw=800&bih=1280

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How about a mayor doing it? Especially one who can be quite confident of having no ancestors who were citizens of the Confederacy?

"A large crane arrived shortly before 8 p.m., in the final hours of Jefferson Davis Day, the state holiday in Alabama honoring the Confederate leader.

The statue has been at the center of a legal fight between the city and the state’s attorney general’s office, with the city wanting it removed but ultimately losing the battle. Still, Randall Woodfin, the mayor of the majority black city, approved the removal on Monday in defiance of the Alabama Monuments Preservation Act, setting the stage for another showdown."

Breaking the law on Jefferson Davis Day is richly ironic.

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I suppose it's called voodoo economics because it's not based on science; more myth (or wishful thinking) than observed reality. Of course, it could be called Christian economics or Jewish economics or Hindu economics or Islam economics. Why slander Vodou rather than some other myth. There is a difference: with Vodou, there is no liturgical authority. According to the liturgical authority of the mainline religions, thrift is equated with virtue, debt with sin. With voodoo economics, debt is the enduring feature. Sure, debt may not be part of the liturgical authority of what's sometimes called "supply side economics" (a kinder term than voodoo economics), but only because there is no liturgical authority. Which is the beauty of it: the liturgy can be invented and reinvented depending on the circumstances.

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Instead i believe Haiti is filled with mystical energy and its clear with the vibrant culture we hold dear to our hearts

I totally approve of Vibrant Culture. I mean, what could possibility be wrong with that? Much better than some sort of Puritanical White Anglo-Saxon repressed emotion.

But I can't help thinking she has got this energy thing a little mixed up. Not that anyone will care. These days to say you believe Jesus died and rose from the dead puts you on the marginals. To say you believe that crystals talk to you and keep you in touch with the spirit of a Stone Age cannibal puts you firmly in the mainstream.

But mystical energy opens the possibility of demonic energy. Just as you cannot say women are superior thinkers without allowing that they are inferior.

Is it surprising, when our overlords attend satanic cooking classes and have their pedophilic pimps maintain temples to the occult on hidden islands? (These people are sick!)

Of course, while our society's descent from puritanical ideals into sinful hedonism has certainly been encouraged by the demon-worshippers in power, there's no denying that, for most people, it's simply a question of sloth. That's why Christianity evolved into Churchianity, for example; it's much easier to spout feel-good meaningless drivel than it is to identify and confront sin in your community and society.

"than it is to identify and confront sin in your community and society."

By trying to keep Slavery legal for instance? You Nazis are getting weirder and weirder.

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"To say you believe that crystals talk to you and keep you in touch with the spirit of a Stone Age cannibal puts you firmly in the mainstream."

Oh, God. Your delusions get funnier and funnier. I still remember Republican hopefuls running over each other to be the one to denounce Darwin and vaccines in the most uncertain terms. Fictitious cannibals talking through alleged channelers are harmless (and exceedingly rare). Voting cannibals are dangerous as Trump's handling of COVID-19 shows.

"These days to say you believe Jesus died and rose from the dead puts you on the marginals."

Those Jewish rascalas! Even after all Inquisitions, censorship, deportation and pogroms, they still do not believe. It does not matter how hard I beat them, they still do not understand my love.

I am sorry but would you please provide a reference to a Republican candidate who condemned Darwin and/or vaccines? Democrats deny Darwin of course. They just don't say so. And there have been anti-vaxxers running on the Left, not on the Right.

Nothing wrong with Trump's handling of the Covid Flu at all. So that has not worked out badly.

The only religion that has been practiced seriously in the White House in recent times, with the possible exception of W, has been crystal gazing of one sort or another.

"Nothing wrong with Trump's handling of the Covid Flu at all. So that has not worked out badly."

Except for being Number in deaths, but who cares about human lives? Low taxes for the rich!! Deficits only mattered from 1993 to 2000 and 2009 to 2016.

"I am sorry but would you please provide a reference to a Republican candidate who condemned Darwin and/or vaccines? Democrats deny Darwin of course. They just don't say so. And there have been anti-vaxxers running on the Left, not on the Right."

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/mccain-to-deliver-keynote-speech-for-creationists-caea7aa6f872/

https://www.wired.com/2007/05/three_republica/

https://www.google.com/search?q=ron+paul+evolution&oq=ron+paul+evolution&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59j69i60l3.3232j0j7&client=tablet-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

"And there have been anti-vaxxers running on the Left, not on the Right."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2015/09/20/donald-trump-spouts-dangerous-anti-vaccine-nonsense-ben-carsons-response-is-worse/#78e28d6b5f11

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/18/politics/ben-carson-vaccine-criticism/index.html

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/05/rand-paul-mandatory-vaccines-measles-1240542

"Democrats deny Darwin of course. They just don't say so."

You Nazis are really angry about the whole statues thing, aren't you? And the 13th Amendment.

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let's start calling it voodoo sociology

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How about Haitian Economics?

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There's more than Haitian voodoo. There's Cuban, Dominican, and Louisianan voodoo, for starters.

theres the late great Screaming Jay Hawkins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGPhpvqtOc

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i don't think the term “voodoo” was intended to imply demonic nature as much as to imply that the theory was based on magical thinking and witchcraft.

but if we are going to cancel voodoo, do we also have to cancel “underpants gnomes”?

Yes. There's nothing "demonic" implied by the term. Rather, it's a reference to the use of sympathetic magic in vodun -- a practice it shares with every other religion, to be sure, but one closely associated with vodun in the American imagination, and one that's been played up by various authentic and inauthentic practitioners of same. I'm not sure I see what the big deal is.

Having one's religion used as a pejorative is somewhat obnoxious. And while a strict interpretation of voodoo may not include anything that could be called demonic, in the American imagination it's purely demonic. For that matter, anything not Christian is considered demonic by many (see this very comments section for evidence).

yeah, but FFS all HW meant was a quip that the supposed "economic theory" was just a wishful thinking finesse.

Obviously, in hindsight, he should have said: that's a wishful thinking finesse.

But don't try and tell me this is a strictly left wing thing. there's still menus around the country listing fried potatoes as "freedom fries."

"But don't try and tell me this is a strictly left wing thing."

Never tried to. I was arguing against Picador's interpretation of the intent of the phrase, and in particular his final statement that he doesn't see what the big deal is. I disagree with his argument that a strict interpretation of "voodoo" is warranted when using the phrase "voodoo economics"; in the vernacular it reads very differently.

In point of fact, I haven't actually argued against the use of the term "voodoo economics". The closest I've come is to state that it's somewhat obnoxious. Lots of obnoxious things happen. Some are even required. That's part of life, and part of liberty. People are going to insult others. Liberty isn't for thin-skinned overgrown children; you've got to have a thick skin if you want freedom.

re "don't try and tell"

sorry that was directed at a couple trolls who follow me around

That's fair. :) This sort of comments section isn't exactly the best place for real conversation.

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It is about exactly as offensive as joking that someone should "say three Hail Mary's" in response to a minor offense. Or that a person who is a light drinker only drinks communion wine.

There's a difference in category between the two.

The "Say three Hail Mary's" is an internal joke--a bit of counter-signaling. It shows that you're a member of the group, and embraces a shared experience. The joke re-enforces the social bond that arises from being part of the same group.

Using the term "voodoo" as a pejorative, in contrast, attacks the out-group. It's saying that something is as silly as those nitwits who believe that silly religion, aren't they so dumb, you don't want to be like them do you?

I'm not saying it's overly offensive. Most pagans I know find the use of their religion as an insult to be amusing, especially since most get the religion wrong (look at the discussion of demons up-thread for excellent examples of this). All I'm saying here is that it's in a different category from in-group jokes. The humor derives from a different source and serves a different purpose.

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Reaganomics is still a perfectly fine word for upward-redistribution scams.

Yeah, credit where credit's due.

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Can we stick a pin in this discussion?

+11
don't say voodoo media or it will get censored

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It is easy to have great humor with this.

But the more fundamental issue goes to the intersection of economics and sociology (hello, Max Weber).

Do religious cultures matter for economic development and growth? If yes, give examples. If no, do you really believe culture doesn't matter?

Haiti is terribly poor, however mystical it is. Does voodoo / voodou play any role in its poverty, directly or indirectly?

Also, politics and society. Does voodoo play in any role in maintaining the social and political structures and leadership of Haiti?

Less PC, more science, please.

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