Where are people respected the most?

by on December 31, 2013 at 7:25 am in Data Source, Philosophy, Uncategorized | Permalink

Following up on Noah Smith’s earlier blog post, we discussed this question at lunch.  Noah cites Japan as a country where there is a high degree of respect granted, and a relatively high equality of respect, and very likely that is true for artisans, manufacturing workers, foreign dignitaries, and foxes.  But is it true more generally if we take into the position of women, who are often locked out of good jobs?  How about the position of the young “lost generation,” namely all those guys with virtual girlfriends, who have given up on real sex and won’t leave their apartments?  How about various minorities in Japanese society, such as the ethnic Koreans?  Does Japan lose out on the forms of respect that come from large, extended families, as you might find say in Sicily?

Those judgments have some subjective elements, but I do think they bring Japan down a few notches when it comes to respect and equality of respect.

Oddly I think of the United States as a country with a fair degree of both respect and equality of respect.  The diversity of niches and the diverse geography create many pathways for being thought highly of, or for thinking highly of oneself, and there are many insulations from the overweening standards of elites.  And we have plenty of indifference, which is a kind of equality of respect, albeit not to be confused with respect per se.

Arguably the most powerful and influential men find plenty of respect in just about any society.  A lot of the cross-national variation in respect might come on the female side of the ledger.  That would likely favor the Nordic countries and Iceland in a ranking of respect.

Cowen’s Third Law says there is a literature on everything, but the most obvious Google searches did not yield concrete results.  (There is however Richard Sennett’s Respect in a World of Inequality.)  Can any MR readers speak to the empirical knowledge on this question?  We all know the literature on happiness across nations, but here we are interested specifically in respect, where people are respected the most, and where equality of respect is most robust.

How would one go about measuring respect?

Addendum: Justin Wolfers suggest this link, and some Gallup World Poll data, showing respect is positively correlated with wealth:

respect

wiki December 31, 2013 at 7:32 am

The mere fact that Cowen automatically thinks that Japanese women are not respected suggests that he confuses status with respect. One can view someone as being in a subordinate position and yet acknowledge the role they provide and respect them for fulfilling their duties correctly. I think that this kind of respect is easier to give all around in homogeneous, hierarchical societies with clear roles for all. Conversely, in the U.S.A. one can insist — often at the risk of a lawsuit — that women be treated equally or even given preference before the law — without engendering respect. Men who dislike modern teen behavior or who think women should not be treated equally in the workforce will grudgingly make room for them but not respect them. Similarly, women will resent this feeling even if they succeed and not reciprocate respect. The greater the need for individuality and the less anchored norms and expectations are to long standing tradition, the more room for conflict and resentment and hence a general disintegration in respect. Expectations are key. For example, you can scream about fat pride all day and night but many will continue to view the heavily obese as undeserving of respect and worthy of condescension.

anon December 31, 2013 at 7:54 am

IIRC, this was part of @Foobarista’s point earlier: the difference of status, respect, and dignity. Mixing in law is interesting.

Can you mandate status? Can you mandate respect? Can you mandate dignity? Can you mandate love?

You can mandate the outer manifestations of these, the treatment of others, but not the interior feelings or motivations. Hmm, seems like a free market addresses much of this. Christianity the rest. YMMV.

mike December 31, 2013 at 12:55 pm

I strongly agree about Christianity, and Western traditional cultures that grew up around it. I also suspect that low population density would be a big factor – how can you genuinely respect someone if you don’t know him from Adam? To look at it from sort of an employment perspective, there is a certain supply of people. The more there are, given limited demand, the less valuable they are. Stuff like television and the internet further amplifies the perception of oversupply at a sub-conscious level.

If we’re talking about respect as more than superficial politeness, then I don’t think it can be mandated, any more than it can be received from a computer simulation. An any attempt to do so will just make it worse, by interfering with the signals that we need to recognize it.

Davis December 31, 2013 at 1:22 pm

Exactly. Good point. There’s more to this: it’s not just that women aren’t respected just because we now throw money and “good jobs” at them and accord them higher status. It’s that men lower than women with higher status are less respected by such women.

Davis December 31, 2013 at 1:38 pm

Re respect, reproduction, divorce, remarriage, etc. are increasingly centralized in a minority of men in the West. For many, this means they leave behind a stream of offspring. In extreme cases, they don’t even bother to marry and divorce—they merely cuckold men.

Both of these are less desirable for beta males than the situation in, say, Africa, where women do most of the agricultural labor because the environment lets them bear it. In the West, although women are “farming” the managerial state because the environment lets them bear it, the alphas don’t even show the betas the respect due to men who care for the alphas children. When polygyny is formalized, there are at least roles like eunuchs which are formally respected by the alphas—rather than having the alphas and their harems continually trying to convince the betas they are actually queer, or “hateful” or whatever. It’s simply a more humane system than de facto polygyny because it is more honest.

Victoria Rivero December 31, 2013 at 7:52 am

I believe this is a very tricky question. This is because “respect” involves so many areas of life. In Germany one feels a great degree of respect as a tourist. In the US too. I believe respect involves taxes and services given by the Government, and the conduct of fellow citizens.
I can tell you in Argentina we are treated with no respect at all although, as a woman, I have gone through university and jobs without any discrimination.

Rahul December 31, 2013 at 8:27 am

“Respect” is very hard to define & very contextual. Sometimes respect for a person is really respect for his position / designation. e.g. a Military General or a factory boss in a third world country.

How does one tease out “real” respect?

Ray Lopez December 31, 2013 at 9:16 am

Also it has something of a loaded meaning with the younger generation, along with the word “SWAG” and other such words as found here: http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-dumbest-slang-words/ . I thought this post was TC acting hip again, as in hip hop. TC, MR, RESPECT!

Col Kurtz December 31, 2013 at 2:34 pm

How does one tease out “real” respect?

If you read the lyrics to Aretha Franklin’s song it makes no sense at all. If you hear her sing it, you understand what “respect” means.

Steve Sailer December 31, 2013 at 7:57 am

The reality check is to make up a list of countries notorious for lack of respect for lower classes (e.g., India, Guatemala) and see if they come in toward the bottom of any metric that somebody has constructed.

Rahul December 31, 2013 at 8:39 am

Agree about India but in general, your approach of validating a metric by comparing / calibrating it versus a stereotype seems a little iffy to me. A stereotype is your gold standard?

gwern December 31, 2013 at 10:37 am

There’s a lot of truths to stereotypes. It’s basically what one is doing when one checks for ‘face validity’, and a lot of psychology scales or measures are constructed this way: take a bunch of data or questions which seem to touch on the thing one has in mind, and administer it to subjects repeatedly, refining the questions with psychometric criteria like loading on identified factors, reliability, consistency of responses across various salient demographics like sex or age, etc. This is pretty much all that the ‘lexical hypothesis’ of the ‘Big Five’/OCEAN psychological traits was: look in the dictionary for ‘stereotypes’ about personalities, and distill them into something better.

Ryan Vann December 31, 2013 at 11:56 am

That Indian culture is steeped in a Brahmin at the top caste system is not a stereo-type; it is an observable fact. Now, whether institutional dharma is evidence of universalized disrespect is a completely different can of worms.

Steve Sailer January 3, 2014 at 12:26 am

It’s a reality check, something that economists don’t do often enough. It’s easy to make up quantitative measures of attitudes, but ones of subjective opinion are notoriously often incommensurate across national and cultural boundaries. So, if your survey doesn’t show that South Asia and Latin America are places where the rich tend to look way down upon the poor, then there is likely something wrong with your metric or the way you are interpreting it.

Bill December 31, 2013 at 8:49 am

I wonder if comments on this site support Tyler’s view that: “I think of the United States as a country with a fair degree of both respect and equality of respect.”

As a country becomes more inequal, will respect decline?

ad*m December 31, 2013 at 4:53 pm

On the contrary, as a country becomes more *diverse*, respect will decline. I respect my brother as much now as I would when he would as much as I do.

ad*m December 31, 2013 at 4:53 pm

would *earn* as much as I do.

Corvus December 31, 2013 at 10:11 am

I think I rarely find Sailer’s comments agreeable – but this one I think stands up. At least, given a first-round of thought level of attention, this sounds good.

Although – it does occur to me to wonder what, exactly, the metric will be. Is respect something one gives an equal? Or is it tolerance and support so long as one stays within one’s socio-economic/subcultural class? Ultimately very different things.

Ryan Vann December 31, 2013 at 12:14 pm

Respect is not about equality, class, any of that garbage (get out of Marxist thought for a second). Respect broadly is about merit (even if it is relative/comparative merit) and regards to another’s agency.

For example, a champion fighter may be better than the contender he faces, but disrespects the relative skill of his opponent, least he lose his title. More simply, I respect you put in the hours to earn the money to purchase the computer you are using to access this site, and I don’t seek to deprive you of it.

Steve Sailer December 31, 2013 at 6:38 pm

Mentioning fighters brings up the issue of public vs. private respect. I doubt if Joe Louis privately respected the palookas he defeated in the Bum of the Month Club fights his manager set up for him, but America back then had standards of public sportsmanship. Muhammad Ali revolutionized that by throwing sportsmanship out the window and acting like a professional wrestler, calling Joe Frazier a “gorilla” and all that.

Ali and his media promoters such as Howard Cosell mark a key transition from a high public respect still somewhat Victorian culture to a winner-take-all one of self-promotion. The chest-beating that follows virtually every play in the NFL these days would have been unthinkable before the 1960s.

Tarrou December 31, 2013 at 8:39 am

I’ll make the proposition that legally enforcing separate standards for different groups leads to a lack of respect, because it gives people the excuse to minimalize the contributions of benefiting groups. For example, women in the military were less respected. They are less respected (in my insider’s considered view) because they were not held to the same standards of physical fitness, expertise or good discipline. You see a man with a set of airborne wings, you think “there’s a reasonably tough guy”. You see a girl, you think the Army passed a memo mandating a pass rate, she didn’t do the march, did a different and less rigorous course, and had a PT score half of what would embarrass a man. The thing about respect is that it has to be earned, and the various affirmative actions provide an easy excuse for not awarding it even when it is.

Anyone see the thing the other day about roughly half the female marines unable to do the pull-ups? In the article it said only 55% of women could do the three pull-ups. Three. The actual standard (for men) is ten or more. You see a male marine, you know he’s been through some shit. You see a female marine, you know she’s been through less. Not sure how much less, but less. Hence, less respect.

Demanding respect while also demanding the standards be lowered for your group is mutually exclusive.

Rahul December 31, 2013 at 8:43 am

In the Indian context our flavor of “reservations” (affirmative action on steroids) has had a similar effect. Some very smart and capable people technically from the “reserved” classes have rued that the tag leads people to discount their legitimate achievements as something of a lesser nature.

Blaise December 31, 2013 at 10:29 am

Women have less muscle than men. Asking women to perform the same physical exercise than men is asking them to exert more effort. So, if they can, they should be more respected (assuming that respect is a function to efforts).

The Anti-Gnostic December 31, 2013 at 11:18 am

“A” for effort! Sounds great and makes everybody feel good. Do you want to apply this to airline pilots, firepersons, surgeons, infantry squad leaders, civil engineers?

Why should women get respect for effort at jobs for which they are physiologically unsuited?

Rahul January 1, 2014 at 5:32 am

One option would be to have a more flexible selection metric. Pull ups are not the end all of modern military performance. Perhaps you let a candidate get away with somewhat fewer pull ups if, say she compensates by having better-than-average marksmanship or running or climbing skills or some such.

Perhaps our metrics are too brute and coarse. How strong is the correlation between extremely high raw pull-up counts and great performance as a modern soldier.

The Anti-Gnostic January 3, 2014 at 8:36 am

Or, rather than fretting over “flexible selection metrics” and social engineering, you can just set a standard of all-around fitness, marksmanship, aerobic health, and strength-mass ratio, which men are routinely able to achieve.

It’s odd how this is one of those areas where institutions don’t get their usual deference. Central banks, for example, are presumed to have expert knowledge to which everybody else is expected to defer. So when Ivy League economists decide to print up a trillion dollars and hand it out to the preferred dealers’ network, the hoi polloi just need to defer to the experts.

Institutions like the US Marine Corps on the other hand, what do they know? When they decide that if you go into combat you should probably have enough upper body strength to do at least three pull-ups, well, tenured law professors know way more than some stupid grunt, so they can countermand them on that.

mike January 3, 2014 at 12:57 pm

Rahul here does a good job exemplifying what I call the “Dungeons and Dragons” school of human equality thinking. You see, if women don’t have the Strength a measly 3 pull-ups, it must be because their character put all its points into Dexterity or Constitution or Intelligence instead. Those brutely men who put all their points into Strength must be poor shots and can’t run very far and are dumb. And as a corollary, we know the designers of D&D: Modern Warfare edition made all the stats equally important so that all different types of characters are viable. Surely there must be some place on the front lines for some waif who literally cannot lift her own body weight. Maybe as a Wizard, or a Ninja?

Ryan Vann December 31, 2013 at 11:29 am

Lol, the military is no place for extremist equalitarianism and cultural Marxism.

Tarrou December 31, 2013 at 12:07 pm

And assuming respect is a function of results? Assuming combat is not decided by who “tries hard”? Assuming the armed forces might accord respect as any reasonable and non-stupid human being might, based on what people do, and not the ephemeral and subjective criteria of “effort”?

But as with all abject sexism disguised as feminism, change a word or two and see if it still works. “Women have less brain mass than men. Asking women to perform the same mental exercise as (FTFY) men is asking them to exert more effort. So we should respect a woman more for her Facebook updates than we do a man for a Nobel Prize, assuming respect is a function of efforts”.

Kevin C. January 2, 2014 at 6:12 pm

+10

dearieme December 31, 2013 at 9:14 am

“Oddly I think of the United States as a country with a fair degree of both respect and equality of respect”: odd indeed. I don’t myself think that viewing a particular racial minority with contempt, fear and loathing constitutes “respect”, but maybe the web has misled me about how common this attitude is among other members of your society.

Anyway, do I understand that your thinking on this is more sociological than psychological – that is to say, that you are thinking about groups rather than individuals. If so, why?

Tarrou December 31, 2013 at 9:26 am

Yes, we in the US aren’t nearly as advanced in our prejudices as the rest of the world. Just ask the Poles and Jamaicans in Britain, the Morroccans in France, or the Turks in Germany. We in America are uniquely (less) disparaging of minorities. Trust me on this, the US displays less prejudice than anywhere I’ve ever been. You may argue that it’s just hidden better, and that may be true, but that in itself is telling.

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 10:27 am

The difference is that none of the countries you listed has an history of official discrimination and racism. First black French representative: 1790′s, first black French minister: 1920′s, first black French head of parliament, 1960′s. All of them decades or centuries before black Americans were even allowed to sit at the front of a bus.
And today the rate of mixed marriage is still higher in France than in America.
Europe is far from being perfect, but still far ahead of the US for that matter.

Urso December 31, 2013 at 11:25 am

No official discrimination or racism? The Bretons, Provencals, Basques (etc etc etc) might disagree with you there. To say nothing of the Jews! Or, more recently, the pied-noir. And I’m sure there are plenty of others I am missing.

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 11:37 am

Seriously, be honest. Bretons and Jews were never forbidden to go to College or use the same bathrooms as every one else.
You can’t in good faith compare that with the way black people were treated in the US.

jmo December 31, 2013 at 12:05 pm

Jews were never forbidden to go to College or use the same bathrooms as every one else.

Are you talking only about France or Europe in general? If you’re talking about Europe in general than you are incorrect.

Tarrou December 31, 2013 at 12:22 pm

Pierre, France once ethnically cleansed every last Jew from its borders. That rather exceeds “didn’t let them go to college”. They didn’t let them be French.

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 12:46 pm

Are you talking under Nazi rule?
Not trying to defend or attack anybody here.
I just genuinely think that official discrimination has been a much more central thing in American history, and it still shows today.

Tarrou December 31, 2013 at 12:56 pm

No, Pierre, I am talking about King Phillip Augustus of France, who decreed that every single Jew be deported from France, and all their possessions confiscated. You may have all the “thoughts” about who discriminated “more”, but your grasp of history is roughly analogous to your grasp of a shaved pig on meth coated in KY jelly. Simple stuff mate. France spearheaded the Crusades, was an imperialist power for centuries, was the most racist country in Europe toward the Jews until Germany took the title belt in the late 1930s. I don’t know what you learned in history class, but if you want to pontificate on the unique crimes of the US, you might want to crack a book about other nations as well, just for comparison.

Oh, and the first black representatives served in the US in the 1860s. Just saying.

mike December 31, 2013 at 12:57 pm

Official discrimination is a more central thing in cultural marxist american history books than it was in actual american history, don’t confuse the two

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 1:09 pm

Tarrou, You might want to take a class on politeness and netiquette. I feel sorry I hurt you so badly you felt compelled to insult me. Please stop, it is always a proof of weakness.
All of your examples are centuries old. Saying that France was the most antisemitic country in Europe is absolute bullshit. France was the first country in Europe to grant equal rights to the Jews. You might want to open an history book yourself.

Urso December 31, 2013 at 1:25 pm

“I just genuinely think that official discrimination has been a much more central thing in American history”
Whether you “genuinely think” something is not in question; I am sure that you believe everything you wrote in total good faith. The fact that you *see* Americans as obviously worse does not mean that Americans *are* obviously worse. Beam in your brother’s eye and all that — although such a reference would no doubt be frowned upon in oh-so-cosmopolitan France ;)

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 1:36 pm

Oh, I don’t believe Americans in general are much worse than European (even though deep racism that can be found sometimes in the American South is unheard of for decades in western Europe).
But saying that the US is much better than Europe in that respect (which was the trigger of this conversation thread) seems to me a bit of a stretch.

dirk December 31, 2013 at 3:43 pm

Pierre, how about thanking us for getting the Nazis out of your country?

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 6:11 am

Dirk, did you personally fought against the Nazi? If you did, thank you very much.
Otherwise, you might as well be thankful to me for the very existence of your country.

Tarrou December 31, 2013 at 12:18 pm

Pierre. I listed Germany. You intend to stand there and tell me that Germany has “no history of official discrimination and racism”? The Brits have their issues with white Eastern Europeans and Indo-Pakistanis (hence the racial slur in Britain of “Pakis”). And France? France “officially” claims that “Article 27 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is not applicable to France since it is a country in which there are no ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities.”. Not to mention the Dreyfus affair, collaboration with the Nazis, the religious cleansing of the Huguenots and the Albigensian Crusade. You, my friend, are hilariously, ridiculously wrong.

whatever December 31, 2013 at 6:27 pm

Wow, I usually love your comments Tarrou, but here you only demonstrate your anti-French prejudice.

I also usually dislike Pierre’s naive comments, but on this subject he is absolutely right. The fact that you and others don’t see it says a lot about the deep rooted racism of Americans. And I say that as someone who believes in innate difference in races and all that.

The Dreyfus Affairs, seriously? Pierre’s answer was right on target.

dirk December 31, 2013 at 7:28 pm

“the deep rooted racism of Americans”

Solve for the irony.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 7:44 pm

I normally stay out of the ‘dick measuring contests’ here but I might as well as make sure you don’t miss me … Just STOP all of you. It is the human condition to fear those who are different than ourselves and we are amazing at splitting that down into fine groups of race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc., etc. There are examples among every people and in every period of inhumanities wrought on others just because they were different. Who cares who had a bigger problem and when? We all should be ashamed and try not repeat some indignity in our family tree and learn from others’ mistakes too. There has been much progress, thankfully but there is room for more tolerance everywhere still. But newsflash, this kind of argument ain’t helping one bit.

mike December 31, 2013 at 8:13 pm

“I normally stay out of the ‘dick measuring contests’ here”

Believe me, arguing about who is more “racist” is not a dick measuring contest, it’s a contest about who are the biggest pussies.

“It is the human condition to fear those who are different than ourselves and we are amazing at splitting that down into fine groups of race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.”

Fear isn’t the correct word here, at all.

“Who cares who had a bigger problem and when?”

Because it’s a bludgeon used to beat certain groups over the head and the basis of a substantial amount of public policy.

There’s no need for a peacemaker here, I think everyone involved can handle this kind of vigorous debate.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 8:34 pm

I am not being a peacemaker and we can all ‘handle’ this debate. I am telling you that you are all wasting each others time and making the problem worse. (I actually checked urban dictionary to make sure the colorful phrase fit, and it does.) Intolerance and violence has everything to do with fear. So be the one to put down the bludgeon, what are you afraid of?

mike December 31, 2013 at 8:53 pm

If you think I’m the one with the bludgeon, you don’t understand the metaphor.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 7:15 am

What happend from my point of view: I read Tarrou’s comment about how America is much better than France and that France is racist towards Moroccans. (By the way, top 5 favorite people for the French in 2012: gad El Maleh, Jewish Moroccan comedian, yannick Noah, black singer, zinedine zidane, Muslim soccer player, Jamel Debouzze, comedian of Moroccan origin, Omar Sy, black Muslim actor)
I just react saying that from my perception, I would be more the opposite. Just trying to bring a non all American point of view to the debate. Suddenly, I am a pretentious French snot who has never opened an history book and should shut up.
Can such extreme reactions be explained only rationally? Or is there so deep anti-French feelings and prejudice that could explain how impolite and upset many people have been?

Tarrou January 1, 2014 at 8:38 am

@ whatever,

What on earth are you talking about? I’m not singling France out, germany was the biggie. You’re saying Pierre is “right on target” when he says that GERMANY has “no official history of discrimination or racism”? People are racist. Right-wingers, left-wingers, moderates in every country. I will absolutely agree with Pierre that France has a better record than the US with regard to blacks. But I completely disagree they have a better record on official racism overall. They’ve had an extra thousand years to make mistakes. And I don’t intend to be told that going back three hundred years (for Pierre’s examples) is recent enough to matter, but going five hundred back is too far.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 11:33 am

I think I am spot on when I say that the Dreyfus story is not a proof of antisemitism, but quite the contrary.
I was more talking about France when I said that we don’t have an history of official discrimination. Obviously Germany is another story.
At the beginning of

Tarrou January 1, 2014 at 12:34 pm

Dreyfus was falsely convicted by a military court of the Republic of France of another man’s crime for no other reason than he was Jewish. When he was proven innocent they simply charged him with more secret crimes, and sentenced him again, until the politics reversed. In what possible way is this not an example of institutional, official anti-semitism? Yes, it is tempered by the fact that after twelve years (!!!!), the anti-semites lost power and the newly ascendant radicals in French politics exonerated him. But to claim that there was no institutional racism involved would be like saying Emmit Till wasn’t a victim of institutional racism because at some later date, the government of the US exonerated him.

And you most certainly said before that “NOT ONE” of the countries I listed had ANY history of official racism. Britain……the greatest imperialist power ever, no history of official racism? France, perhaps the third largest imperialist power, Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Vietnam, the Jews, not one single instance of official racism? Germany you concede now what you denied before. You cannot be serious in claiming that all of these countries, with far longer histories than the US, have much more to answer for in terms of institutional racism. The US certainly must account for slavery and Jim Crow, the indian ethnic cleansings and the various low-grade Latin American imperialisms. I deny none of this. But one cannot hack off the past fifteen hundred years of history and start the clock only at the worst possible time for the US, at the precise moment when England and France begin to liberalize and think it is a fair comparison. My point was that every nation with any sort of history at all has a history of discrimination and racism. We should not whitewash this, but we should not also oversell it. Nor single out one country which actually does quite well in terms of fighting discrimination as somehow uniquely evil.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 1:52 pm

Tarrou, that’s tue that I was thinking about post WWII history. If you take the whole history of Europe, there are obviously some very dark times for every major country.
I was reacting to this claim of yours: “Yes, we in the US aren’t nearly as advanced in our prejudices as the rest of the world. Just ask the Poles and Jamaicans in Britain, the Morroccans in France, or the Turks in Germany. We in America are uniquely (less) disparaging of minorities. Trust me on this, the US displays less prejudice than anywhere I’ve ever been.”
Your are saying that the US is much better than European countries.
You are the one who started foolish and absurd claims. There is nothing similar to American Old South Racism in contemporary Europe. Not saying Europe is much better, just saying that was you said was plainly wrong and not backed by any facts.

Tarrou January 1, 2014 at 5:34 pm

So now, in order to salvage your argument, we’re going to truncate history to post WW2, just in time to miss the worst of the Germans and Brits, but not in time to save you from the French colonialism in Algeria and Vietnam, nor the current laws regarding muslim dress which are far harsher and more discriminatory than anything the US currently prescribes. And how do you shoehorn the “old South” into post-WW2 history? You want to compare 19th century slavery in the US to post-colonial societies? Or are you attempting to equivocate your way to indicting the eighteen-year period between the end of the war and the Civil Rights Act? I’m honestly a little lost here, what are you on about?

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 6:00 pm

You obviously don’t understand better the scarves laws than the Dreyfus affair.
I copy here my comment from below:
The whole HBD thing is from the US, not from Europe. The whole Eurabia theory is from the US, not from Europe. 15% of Americans wed outside of their race, 27% in France. One third of African Americans will go to jail, which is a unique case of racial discrimination in the whole world.
Just a little story that has no value as an argument, but nevertheless useful to flesh up the conversation with real life examples: A very close friend of mine, father from Togo, French mother, Harvard educated, was in Georgia last summer. He asked his way to a dozen of white people. None of them answered him, and many asked him to leave them alone immediately. Maybe just a stupid and not very meaningful anecdotal story, but he was very shocked. He never experienced that in his whole life before, either in Paris or Boston.
One last thing: as Plato distinguishes in Gorgias, there are 2 ways to debate. One way, the childish way, it to see discussion as a combat and a way to gain power and social status. The other way, the philosophical way, is to use the opponent as a way to test and try arguments validity and reach together some sort of common truth. If you are interested in the first way, I will stop the discussion here, if you prefer the second way, please stop being so disrespectful.

Careless January 1, 2014 at 8:18 pm

15% of Americans wed outside of their race, 27% in France.

Racial demographics in France being what they are, that’s barely even theoretically possible.

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 12:56 pm

You do realize most of your examples are centuries old, or under foreign occupation, right? Not an official shared ideology that lasted most of the XXth century, just as it was in the US.
Moreover I think you don’t understand the Dreyfus affair. For all Jews in Europe, it meant that France could be torn apart for the honor of an obscure Jew soldier, which was at that time unique in the world. It was broadly understood as a proof that France was a country of equality, not of discrimination.
Once again, I am not saying there has never been discriminations in France, but on a racist basis and on an official level: never to the same extent as in the US.

mike December 31, 2013 at 1:04 pm

Why don’t you ask some French blacks how racist France is next time they’re out burning cars in the banlieue

Col Kurtz December 31, 2013 at 2:29 pm

American tolerance for ethnic diversity is far higher and it’s not close. Even if you ignore popularly elected presidents, the respective assemblies are decisive:

France has 9 minorities among its 577 member Parliament.
Germans don’t track ethnicity, they use a Nissei-Issei concept and the 2013 election brought 35 “migration background” members to the 631 member parliament.
The U.S. has 87 minorities among 535 Members (45 black, 37 Hispanic, 13 Asian, 2 Native American(!) ). 13 are foreign born. We have fewer atheists and women, but more members with military service, more Christians, 3 Buddhist, 2 Muslim, 1 Hindu and a partridge in a pear tree.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 6:35 am

I can agree that there are few minorities in the French parliament. Mainly because affirmative action is frowned upon, so France has trouble creating an elite from the minorities.

Tarrou January 1, 2014 at 8:43 am

Aaand there we have it. “Jew soldier”. Didn’t have to dig far for that, did I? You keep knocking the US for racism mate. See, it’s funny, “Jew” isn’t a racial epithet, but when it’s appended to other words like that without the suffix “ish” it’s a surprisingly good shibboleth for anti-semites.

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, Freud was right. Projection isn’t just for the movies.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 9:31 am

Except that English is not my mother tongue, and it was a grammatical mistake.
Now you continue your ad hominem attacks based on cheap Internet psychology.
I am sure you can do better and you don’t have to stoop so low.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 9:33 am

(And by the way my grand father was Jewish from Alsace and fled the German invasion of 1871.)

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 9:37 am

(His family fled to Algeria where my grand father was born in 1925)
My step mother is Muslim from Morrocan origin and my brother is married to a black woman from Ivory cost. My nephews are half black.
My best friend is Jewish and I was his best man.
Seriously, I am a multicultural, multi ethnic, multi religious liberal fantasy.

dirk December 31, 2013 at 3:28 pm

That America has a history of institutional racism is probably the reason that today there is more respect among the races than countries who haven’t dealt with it in such a direct fashion and thoughtful, soul-searching manner. We not only have a literature about racial relations in America, we have a Literature about racial relations in America, not to mention a homegrown, world-class genre of music created by a collaboration between American blacks and whites. Our culture is so steeped in organic racial diversity that our identity as Americans has little to do with what race we are. But, yes, you would be very mislead about this if you take the racist comments on Sailer’s blog as representative.

Brian Donohue December 31, 2013 at 3:46 pm

slow clap.

dirk December 31, 2013 at 4:11 pm

It sounds corny, but there’s more than a grain of truth to it. Pierre seems to think that our history is evidence of our current state of respect for minorities. My point is only that the crucible of our history has made us the progressives that we are at this point in time. Pierre is expressing the ignorance of a typical French snot who knows nothing about real American culture yet thinks he’s an expert on the subject.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 6:29 am

Dirk, ever heard of how ad hominem attacks make someone sound despicable?
You just feel hurt and attacked when my only point was to underline that saying that France is more racist than the US is not particularly backed by History. That’s true I am not an expert about the US. What I know is that many black American soldiers stayed in France after WWII, because they felt more respected here, and I know than there are much more mixed marriages in France than in the US.
I am not trying to offend you, and anyway, I think it is probably impossible to know for sure which country is the most racist, and I am not even sure that the question makes sense. All that I’m saying is that seeing America as the El Dorado of racial relationships and the Old World as a continent of prejudice (the claim that triggered my answer) is delusional.
One last think Dirk, do you realize that by calling me a “typical French snot” you are expressing a form of racism? At least you are expressing your anti-French prejudice, while all that I am trying to do is to have a civilized conversation.

dirk January 1, 2014 at 12:25 pm

Pierre, you also make the claim that previous racism in America “still shows today”. What are you basing this on? All of your examples from history are history. The topic here is how things are in the present not the past. But your attitude is, in fact, typical of Europeans’ attitudes towards Americans. You know a little bit of our history and think it’s enough to pass judgment on the current generation of Americans.

Pierre January 1, 2014 at 2:09 pm

Dirk, the whole HBD thing is from the US, not from Europe. The whole Eurabia theory is from the US, not from Europe. 15% of Americans wed outside of their race, 27% in France. One third of African Americans will go to jail.
A very close friend, father from Togo, French mother, Harvard educated, was in Georgia last summer. He asked his way to a dozen of white people. None of them answered him, and many asked him to leave them alone immediately. Maybe just a stupid and not very meaningful anecdotal story, but he was very shocked. He never experienced that in his whole life before, either in Paris of Boston.

Floccina December 31, 2013 at 4:28 pm
Pierre January 1, 2014 at 6:31 am

Wow a random unsourced quote. You must be right.

prior_approval December 31, 2013 at 10:41 am

‘We in America are uniquely (less) disparaging of minorities’

Tell that to the person who likes to point out how less suitable ‘ethnic Catholics’ are as American citizens compared to older immigrant groups. Nothing unique about that attitude, at all, in today’s U.S.

The Anti-Gnostic December 31, 2013 at 11:23 am

Nothing unique about that attitude anywhere, even in the Left’s beloved Europa, which is perennially exploding in nationalist bloodshed.

Ryan Vann December 31, 2013 at 11:32 am

I suppose you are referring to the rampant white hate in the US? If so, I concur whole heartedly. Nowhere on earth is hating whitey done better than the US.

mike December 31, 2013 at 12:28 pm

Widespread hatred, disparagement, and discrimination mandated by government against whites isn’t “racism” because whites are a majority or something. And when whites become a minority, it still won’t be “racism” because whites used to be the majority, or something.

21st Century American White Guy December 31, 2013 at 12:52 pm

Nobody knows the trouble that I’ve seen

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 1:07 pm

Tarrou, You might want to take a class on politeness and netiquette. I feel sorry I hurt you so badly you felt compelled to insult me. Please stop, it is always a proof of weakness.
All of your examples are centuries old. Saying that France was the most antisemitic country in Europe is absolute bullshit. France was the first country in Europe to grant equal rights to the Jews. You might want to open an history book yourself.

Bill December 31, 2013 at 9:45 am

I think you first need to define the term “respect” before you can test it accross cultures. Perhaps you can test for the “absence of respect” as an inverse measure of respect if you include indifference in your measure of respect.

So, to find absence of respect, you might want to do linquistic analysis (find frequency of disrespectful words, their usage, and context), frequency of crimes associated with disrespect (or looking at whether laws prohibit certain types of disrespectful behaviour), frequency of employment terminations based on disrespectul conduct (or absence thereof), the radio audience statistics for radio announcers who make disrespectul comments on race or economic status.

Ryan December 31, 2013 at 10:06 am

If we define respect as politeness in day to day interactions, then I agree with TC. In general, Americans are very polite. And Canadians.

The Anti-Gnostic December 31, 2013 at 11:36 am

Like somebody mentioned, are we talking about dignity, status, courtesy or respect?

“Respect” strikes me as the latest fashionable buzzword to catch Tyler’s fancy, like “equality,” which nobody’s bothered to define or think critically about.

Z December 31, 2013 at 10:11 am

I’m respect everywhere except in my town and amongst friends and my family.

Floccina December 31, 2013 at 4:43 pm

+1

Blaise December 31, 2013 at 10:26 am

I like the idea of Cowen to look at respect for women. The best way to look at respect is to look at the respect shown to people at the bottom and maybe look at the difference in respect with people at the top. To some extent it is hard to show respect to everyone in a society because respect is relative. When leaders and powerful people are highly respected, people at the bottom are usually not respected at all. This is the pattern of most of sub-saharan societies.

Pedro December 31, 2013 at 10:33 am

I thought “there is a literature on everything” was Cowen’s Second Law, with Cowen’s Third Law being “All propositions about real interest rates are wrong.” – See more at: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/06/what-are-markets-demanding.html#sthash.W2HWxyGT.dpuf

Brian Donohue December 31, 2013 at 11:02 am

But didn’t we already destigmatize everything?

This whole conversation is a waste of time. Respect is earned, it comes from within. On an individual basis, treat people with respect and decency. That’s it. Most people don’t do this all the time. Oh well.

Noah kicks the whole thing off with this: “Inequalities between human beings have always annoyed me, and I have the strong desire to see them eliminated.”

nuff said.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 11:20 am

I try hard to look for and appreciate the nuggets of insight in every person, while still respecting my own (quirky,often misguided) voice. As a reward, here I have gotten called a “cunt”, compared to “Stalin” and “Hitler,” told to be ignored because I was on a “hamster wheel,” and lifted up as an example of why women should not have gotten the vote. (Those were all different people and I don’t think they were trying to be funny.)

I am done commenting here, out of self respect. Being disrespectful (to others or yourself) gets you a very small world and I have no idea why anyone wants that or accepts it when they see it.

nuff said.

Ryan Vann December 31, 2013 at 11:50 am

You go grrrl! “I will not be subjected to criminal abuse.”

To be serious for a moment, let’s not deign to think your intraweb experience is unique. Interesting enough, we are on the most disrespectful medium ever devised, discussing respect, and look how much more open discussion and debate that medium has made possible. Respect, especially that of a synthetic imposed type, is overrated. It leads to a bunch of muttering shut-ins. True respect is the end result of transgression and disrespect, it is earned through the crucible of scrutiny.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 12:17 pm

Ryan, to be clear, it makes me immensely sad. I have enjoyed commenting and talking with people here a lot over the past few years. But in the end I felt like I was detracting from the conversation and the residual grumpiness was doing me no favors either. Plus I have other places to stir up trouble. I agree this format does not have the typical respect devices of everyday life. That is one reason why I do not comment anonymously, it is my commitment to own my words and thus behave respectfully. Also I think just by being we each deserve the respect of others and ourselves, no one has an easy row to hoe in this world.

Bill December 31, 2013 at 5:10 pm

Claudia,

I would recommend your continued interaction. I view my own participation as a missionary program to bring information to people so they can question their own views, or not, as they wish.. But, All too often responses are intertwined with identity, so you never get to a conversation, but simply see a display of colors, or a recitation of labels. I will go after with my words anyone who offends you, but I think that the audience is, for the most part, smart enough to disregard those folks, and recognize them for what they are based on their comments.

But, there are many better econ blogs out there, with more substance and fewer ad hominems in the comments, and can understand your reaction.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 8:00 pm

Thanks, Bill. I have plenty of ‘missionary programs’ but commenting here has been more for fun or even coping with those other ‘programs.’ I was not so bothered by the silly jabs as how they would sidetrack an otherwise interesting conversation, this really is supposed to be fun. I have other spots now like Twitter and some moderated blogs to play in, as one example is mathbabe whose advice I sought: http://mathbabe.org/2013/12/28/aunt-pythias-advice-32/ (Her Aunt Pythia puts Trudie to shame, by the way.) And as many a befuddled colleague/friend has noted I could just read here and keep my oddball opinions to myself. A new year, a new adventure.

Brian Donohue December 31, 2013 at 12:14 pm

Wait what?

I fail to see the connection between Noah’s article and rude Internet flame wars. Perhaps I am being obtuse, but ‘the inequality of respect” whatever that is, is not, to me, a proxy for “the decades-long decline in civility and basic human decency” which cuts across all lines and gets extra juice from an impersonal Internet.

Far from being one of the cretins you allude to above, I admired and was impressed by your toughness and ability to shrug that crap off, and I said so.

If you go, it will be a loss to the site, even though I usually disagree with you.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 12:23 pm

Think about the treatment of women that TC noted in his post. This is a community too. What does the “female side of the ledger” look like here? Thanks for the kind words.

Brian Donohue December 31, 2013 at 3:33 pm

Sometimes I wonder what kind of sociological experiment Tyler is running on us.

He nudges us this way and that, often in exasperatingly Sphinx-like fashion,

I guess I’d be surprised if he took a look at the current state of the comment board and felt like it was just like momma made.

I find the ‘mainstream taboo’ topics of interest, but it’s a playing with fire thing and brings the nuts out of the woodwork. Work in progress? I much prefer self-imposed behavioral standards to censorship. We’ll see.

Anyway, you announced you were pulling the plug in reply to me, but I think I’m generally courteous at least, so I was a bit surprised.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 3:51 pm

Goodness, Brian my exit was not in response to you, at all and to the contrary. I actually decided a few days ago — after I got a second opinion from a female math blogger I respect — and I didn’t mean to make a fuss about it in the comments, but it is still fresh in my mind and something in your comments about respect triggered a response. At the very basic level of name calling or the way we greet people … I do not think anyone has to *earn* respect. But I agree with you this is best left up to individuals to decide for themselves … and this is an extremely interesting discussion space. I just got tired, though that was not all on me.

Kevin C. January 2, 2014 at 6:21 pm

Good riddance, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

Urso December 31, 2013 at 11:21 am

Seems to me that Smith has placed way too much emphasis on a single incident where a single Japanese person called a chef “sir.” It’s almost a comic trope of the orientalist genre, where an American traveller sees an incident like this and thinks “ah yes. I now Understand The Japanese Culture.” Yet Prof. Cowen is taking this super, super seriously?

Pierre December 31, 2013 at 11:40 am

I spent almost 10 years in Japan.
I don’t think it is a unique incident.

Tom Donahue December 31, 2013 at 6:57 pm

I’ve lived in Japan for 30 years, and I don’t think it’s unique either. It’s completely normal.

Anonymous coward December 31, 2013 at 11:58 am

You can delete the two paragraphs pertaining to Japan from Noah’s post and it will improve.

asdf December 31, 2013 at 11:26 am

This is the oddest opinion I’ve ever heard. America is the country in which not being a “loser” is the most important thing in the world, in which the majority of the populace is classified as losers, and in which the primary measurements of being a loser or not are money, status, power, fame, and charisma.

Yancey Ward December 31, 2013 at 12:03 pm

Jeez, not like the rest of the world where all the “losers” just don’t get noticed at all.

jmo December 31, 2013 at 12:08 pm

the primary measurements of being a loser or not are money, status, power, fame, and charisma.

In what country is that not true?

uffs December 31, 2013 at 4:48 pm

I do hear that less-attractive and less-charismatic men have much better luck with women in Europe, which seems to be a point in your favor. I’d also imagine that countries ranked as very happy e.g. Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Australia, etc. are going to posses more per capita respect since most people are not happy when disrespected.

R Richard Schweitzer December 31, 2013 at 11:57 am

A problem with this badminton of ideas about “respect” probably stems from attempting to compress too much of the explanation of how humans in their individuality *perceive* the individuality of other humans into a single word; or, at times, into particular labels for concepts of the motivations of others.

There have been studies and some classical writing about how human sentiments (individuals’ feelings about themselves and others) are developed. To select a single word as compressing how those sentiments are expressed can limit the understanding of human interactions.

An additional factor creating difficulties in understanding through the use of a single term (e.g., respect or regard) arises from the manner or circumstances in which, and facilities through which, human individualities interact.

The trends which have been reducing the direct interactions of individualities in Western cultures, so that they are conducted through facilities such as the mechanisms of governments, dominant associations, and other vicarious means, does affect the circumstances of observations from which individuals can develop perceptions of other individuals. These trends are part of the apparent recession of individuality at this stage of the predominant (and most numerous) cultures in the social orders of Western Civilization.

For purposes of further discussion, consider “respect” in terms of its use as an expression of human sentiments, derived from perceptions which are based upon observations and experience.

ladderff December 31, 2013 at 11:59 am

Respect among strangers cannot survive an official ideology of cosmic equality.

Ryan Vann December 31, 2013 at 12:08 pm

Took me a couple reads (heady stuff), but that is brilliantly phrased, and probably the best comment made thus far. Much respect.

Respect is impossible if we’ve all internalized the participation award culture.

ladderff January 2, 2014 at 11:31 am

Appreciate the compliment, Ryan; thanks

Turkey Vulture December 31, 2013 at 1:22 pm

No disrespect, but you should operationalize your variables here.

Nick_L January 1, 2014 at 10:33 pm

‘operationalize your variables’ ? Ian M. Banks would surely have appreciated (and used) that one..

Davis December 31, 2013 at 1:42 pm

Re respect, reproduction, divorce, remarriage, etc. are increasingly centralized in a minority of men in the West. For many, this means they leave behind a stream of offspring. In extreme cases, they don’t even bother to marry and divorce—they merely cuckold men.

Both of these are less desirable for beta males than the situation in, say, Africa, where women do most of the agricultural labor because the environment lets them bear it. In the West, although women are “farming” the managerial state because the environment lets them bear it, the alphas don’t even show the betas the respect due to men who care for the alphas children. When polygyny is formalized, there are at least roles like eunuchs which are formally respected by the alphas—rather than having the alphas and their harems continually trying to convince the betas they are actually queer, or “hateful” or whatever. It’s simply a more humane system than de facto polygyny because it is more honest.

bryan December 31, 2013 at 2:03 pm

Note that Noah Smith is a liberal Jew. He either doesn’t understand Japan, or he’s twisting an example from Japan in order to promote liberal views that people like him always promote. Because actually instituting the kind of “respect” and social mores seen in Japan would mean making the US look more like the US of 1950s or even earlier, and that’s anathema to people like Noah Smith.

Tom Donahue December 31, 2013 at 8:46 pm

Why can’t he understand Japan? He’s lived here, and so do I, and I agree with him. It’s not a difficult point.
Recently I had to read up on Erik Erikson’s ideas about identity, one of which was that an essential element of a healthy identity is affirmation from society that your contribution is valued. That doesn’t cost anything, and here in Japan everyone gets it.
It’s the reverse that’s mystifying to me. Why in the States (and especially among libertarians?) does a sense of self-worth so often involve disparagement of some other group? Look at the comment section on this blog. Take away every expression of open contempt, and what would be left?
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t seem very healthy to me.

asdf December 31, 2013 at 10:54 pm

Japan has an actual culture and a pretty homogenous population that is on board with it.

The USA has only consumer culture and lots of groups that share no core assumptions and values.

mike January 1, 2014 at 12:59 am

You agree with him about what, exactly? That was bryan’s point, that Noah Smith in typical liberal jew fashion is extremely slippery about exactly what his logic is while being extremely explicit about what the takeaway should be – more liberal/jew policies for America.

Brian Donohue January 1, 2014 at 1:13 pm

“Why in the States (and especially among libertarians?) does a sense of self-worth so often involve disparagement of some other group?”

Tyler attracts an…eclectic commentariat. I think you impugn libertarians unfairly.

Ryan December 31, 2013 at 3:49 pm

The irony is that the link to Noah’s blog on “respect” was first raised in a comment field on a blog post entertaining the idea that the, arguably, most important Christian holiday of the year can be moved around, willy-nilly based on “[the goal to] minimize non-convexities, which in this context means avoiding the possibility of no mail or UPS deliveries for two days running.”

A day that celebrates the man who advocated to “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Talk about respect.

The fact that people are calling for “definitions of respect” which I think one can web-search for a decent answer is also laughable. “a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements” is pretty good. As others have pointed out, “respect” is reflexive, sure in the eye-of-the-beholder but typically “earned”. Noah confuses it with politeness and fails to acknowledge that it is the cultural frameworks that help to achieve the example he uses — Japan — and that will lead to the “type of respect” he yearns for — the very same frameworks that those typically labeled “liberals” or “progressives” have managed to erode from state sponsored institutions over the years.

Indeed, the lines the media attempts to segment the ‘Rs’ and ‘Ds’ get blurred more and more daily. I’m not advocating we re-institute state sponsored, religious based frameworks but perhaps just a nod to a certain set of their fundamentals, and instituting under another guise would do.

Claudia December 31, 2013 at 4:33 pm

No irony. I was called an “ungrateful cunt” (since deleted, thanks) in that Christmas thread and my way of pushing back was to highlight the need for more respect, as I had just read in Noah’s post.

I agree with you that respect casts a wide net but not to the point of being without meaning or importance. As for adding links, I found this report along the lines of what I worry about now with respect: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/07/22/hard-times-have-hit-nearly-everyone-and-hammered-the-long-term-unemployed/ I find talk of ZMP, threshold workers, or tech obsolescent workers pretty darn frightening. You may well be right that religion and other traditional community networks could help spread respect, in fact I have seen anecdotal evidence of that in African American churches.

Thomas January 1, 2014 at 1:34 am

So you were called an “ungrateful cunt” (among other names) and the post was deleted and your suggestion regarding respect resulted in a new post by Cowen. A post that spawned a discussion of respect by country that you casually referred to as a “dick measuring contest”. In this thread, Bill pledged his allegiance to defending you against mean words. In the threat you are referring to, you had many come to your defense.

And you complain that you don’t receive enough respect? Can you name 5 commenters who receive more respect than you? IIt seems to be the case that one particular commenter was extremely aggressive (I’d call it harassment) toward you, but can it really be claimed that you aren’t respected enough? If anything, you receive more respect (at least nominally) because you are a woman and some males here have been socialized to give you a respect premium over males, or because of the rarity of women here, or because of some beta-urge to “be nice”.

But, hey, no one can stop you from walking away, just try not to play the victim, it really plays in to the stereotypes.

Claudia January 1, 2014 at 8:28 am

I am not a victim. The colorful phrase from me in this post (I actually picked this up from another commenter, not in my typical lexicon) just underscores how I could have done a lot more here deserve name calling. With some rare and unfortunate exceptions I have showed respect to my fellow commenters here … cause I think you are all awesome, even those who don’t like to tie arguments up with a pretty bow. It takes a lot of courage even in an online forum to voice unpopular opinions and engage people who feel strongly different than you do. In real life, I spend a lot of time trying to whip up more dissent, and it can be hard if people show too much respect, too much deference to each other or status quo ideas. Yet there is something delicate about those spaces of dissent. I am just taking a break from this dance, that’s all.

Bill January 1, 2014 at 9:35 am

Tom, you can’t call the person who put up with these comments without looking inward at yourself by asking: if this occurred, how many times does one have to put up with it? Or, you could also ask yourself if you are adopting a trope that someone who points this out is somehow playing a victim game and can’t play with the tough guys….and you might also ask if your claim that she got respect because she was a woman is just as condescending as well.

Bill January 1, 2014 at 10:07 am

Oh, and by the way, if any of you are young people reading this post, let me advise you not to talk this way at work. 1) If you are in a large organization, you will get a performance review with bad comments, and maybe a trip to the HR department; 2) You will not be given responsibilities as a supervisor, because you will be regarded as insensitive to those below you; and 3) You also should be aware that large businesses have zero tolerance…you don’t get to say, someone only said this once or this person is just claiming to be a victim.

You are OUTA Here if this is your attitude.

You can learn lessons on blogs…and this is one of them.

Tom January 1, 2014 at 4:52 pm

Who are you again?

mike January 1, 2014 at 7:45 pm

Thanks for the reminder, Comrade.

Rajesh January 1, 2014 at 2:02 am

Respect in Abstraction can be modeled as having two components:
i) General Disposition
ii) towards an Abstract Other. This other can have many forms,

So who has the best General Disposition – maybe the US is on better ground.
But when it comes the Other, i feel most nations lapse into negative territory. Most of US, Japan, China, Orientalist Europe (insularity of contemporary Europe including Germany) , Japan, China, Russia, India are acknowledged offenders. However a caveat- due to Western supremacy over last 2-3 centuries Japan, China and India are disrespectful towards everyone except Whites.

This is only anecdotal and impression based but maybe Scandinavians, parts of Eastern seaboard & west coast of US can Respect an Other.

Respect Erosion – Probably due to a mix of Objective (say poor hygiene habits of most of third world) & Subjective factors (race, religion impressions)

Forget Islam which is having 2-sided debate, Dark skin and vague impressions of Different God is the biggest bugbear i think in eroding respect.

How slow are the Third World to catch up. Really distasteful their slowness.

And then we have Gender which is huge in India but surprisingly very huge in Japan.

So Unreconcilable Cultural Differences (my god better than yours etc); Slow Globalisation and slow spread of Objective Good Habits and Practices make most lose respect for the Other.

Cowen Sir off to a blazing start in the New Year

Frances Coppola January 1, 2014 at 10:21 pm

Extraordinary. A post about respect attracts some of the most disrespectful comments I have ever read.

Sloganmaker January 6, 2014 at 1:26 am

It really depends on the country’s culture. In some country, for example in India, many don’t respect women that’s why cases of rape is very high.

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