The attached article is here, and here is more information.
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Interesting article- Merry Christmas!
A belated “Happy Hanukkah” to my Jewish friends!
“Merry Christmas!”
To atheists: “Good Luck.”
A subtitle could read, “How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love th Jihad.”
We’re winning the War Against Christmas! Bwahahahaha! Get used to it!
Who is this “we” of which you write?
That is a remarkable collection of hate-filled statements about his fellow Americans considering it is intended to celebrate Christmas. That and strawmen.
Of course, to the Muslim haters and others on the far right, Muslims celebrating Christmas freaks them out. Apparently they think they own Christmas as well as Jesus.
Yeah, well, you know, Christians (that is what he calls haters) kind of do, don’t they?
To be honest though, I can’t even put into words the joy I feel when these bigots get angry over this type of stuff. It’s like Christmas for me any day they get pissed.
That is not really nice is it?
Now to be clear, there are theological differences between the way Muslims and Chirstians view Jesus. Christians view Jesus as the Son of God. While Muslims do believe in the Virgin birth of Jesus, they view Jesus as a messenger of God.
In other words, Muslims do not agree with Christians about Jesus. In fact they hold what are, to most orthodox Christians, highly insulting views about Jesus. It is like saying some people think Muhammed was the messenger of God while other people think Muhammed was eating too many mushrooms, so they are basically in agreement.
Another difference is that Muslims don’t pray to Jesus. Nor do we even pray to Mohammed as some mistakenly think. We just pray to God.
Because, at the risk of being fired from a small-town American university, if one should ever hire me as Faculty, they do not pray to the same God. You might argue that Jews and Muslims share the same God. But Jesus is part of the Trinity and anyone who denies that is not praying to the same God. As Maimonides, for instance, made perfectly clear when he said a Jew had to choose death over forcible conversion to Christianity, but not to Islam, because worshiping the Christian God was polytheism.
In fact, one the most sacred holiday for Muslims is the sacrifice of Abraham, known as Eid al-Adha. Yes, that’s the same Abraham and the same sacrifice that Jews and Christians recognize, whereby God tested Abraham by commanding him to sacrifice his only son. (For those unaware of the story—spoiler alert—God doesn’t actually make Abraham sacrifice his son.)
So he can’t even get his basic Jewish and Muslim theology right. He obviously wasn’t play close attention in class. The Muslims say Abraham had many sons and he was called on to sacrifice Ishmael. The Jews (and hence Christians) presumably agree he had many sons, but that he was called on to sacrifice Isaac.
So he was not called to sacrifice his only son, just his favorite son. And it is not the same sacrifice in all traditions except in broad outline as the Jews think he was called on to sacrifice the ancestor of the Jews and the Muslims think he was called on to sacrifice the ancestor of the Arabs.
The message of Jesus isn’t just for Christians, it’s for anyone who wants to look to his words and actions and take inspiration. It would be stupid of Christians to think that others should ignore his teachings for the fact of them not believing that Jesus is the Son of God (a name which I believe was given to him as a conspiracy to get the Romans to kill him as a revolutionary, since “Son of God” was the second title of Caesar Augustus).
It is not insulting to Christians to say “I venerate the Jesus as told in the stories, but do not believe he is the Son of God”. Rather, this is merely a theological disagreement. Any Christian who finds this “insulting” should refer to the Jesus-dude they worship for guidance on how to deal with this sort of issue.
Muslims worship the God of Abraham. That’s the same God as the Jews, and the same God as Christians. The matter of disagreement is on whether Jesus should also be elevated to divine status.
The matter of Abraham’s sacrifice is not a theological question, it is a matter of essentially inconsequential details in the story. The relevance is how far he was willing to go to prove his devotion (I would say subservience) to God. Abraham’s sons were ancestors to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
Nathan W December 25, 2015 at 3:14 am
So how many ignorant statements can Nate make in a single post?
Can I start by saying I love it when Social Justice Warriors start laying down the law about what the God they do not believe in actually taught. I always find that sort of arrogance inspiring in its own way.
The message of Jesus is obviously for everyone. Those that listen and understand are Christians. Those that don’t, aren’t. By all means others should listen and take heed. But that heed requires accepting that Jesus is the Son of God. Otherwise you are either not a Christian or a very odd sort of Christian – the sort that has been declared heretical for virtually all of the last 2000 years.
(a name which I believe was given to him as a conspiracy to get the Romans to kill him as a revolutionary, since “Son of God” was the second title of Caesar Augustus).
See? This sort of thing is impressive.
It is cute that you think denying the basis of someone’s faith is not insulting. Just as to say someone’s mother is a dog is not a discussion of basic biology. People who believe – you may have met some in your life, maybe at a bus stop or something – have an identity that is based on that faith. When you deny it, you are attacking them personally.
Any Christian who finds this “insulting” should refer to the Jesus-dude they worship for guidance on how to deal with this sort of issue.
Matthew 10:34?
Any God that excludes Jesus is not the same God. As usually Jews and Muslims say so.
Again, you talk with such confidence on a subject you clearly know nothing. The matter of Abraham’s sacrifice is entirely a theological question – the Christians think it foreshadows Jesus for one thing. The other thing is that the details are not inconsequential as Isaac inherited Abraham’s special relationship with God according to the Jews. Ishmael did according to the Muslims. Thus the Holy Lands, broadly interpreted, belong to Jews due to this sacrifice. Or to the Muslims according to their version.
You know, minor inconsequential details like that.
Abraham’s sons were ancestors to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
Abraham’s sons are not the ancestors to all Christians. Not even to all Muslims.
You’re making the same mistake as EH. We disagree on some things so you decide to call me ignorant.
I’m 100% atheist, but think everyone should study the life and story of Jesus, and try to bring it into their personal practice. Especially “Christians”.
OK, on Abraham and the sacrifice – there have been millions of sermons around the world on this, and I guarantee you that there is not broad agreement on this. The interpretation of this story is not part of the founding doctrines of any church. There is nothing ignorant about failing to regurgitate whichever interpretation you happen to be most familiar with. I described it as a story of devotion to God – disagreement should be met with something more like “huh, I’m more familiar with a different interpretation” not “you’re ignorant”. As though though some by-product of the Red Scare has a monopoly on religious interpretations.
I always took it for granted that people know that worship isn’t a direct relationship between worshiper and worshipee, but requires a conceptualization of what is being worshipped. If the conceptualizations differ, then people are obviously worshipping different things, regardless of shared texual provenance. When people say “Abrahamic religions worship the same god”, are they making a metaphysical claim, or simply referring to the historical relationships between the religions?
If the latter, then it is a really odd way to respond to someone making the metaphysical claim that they are worshipping different gods.
Interesting question.
I suggest that the number of different ways of conceptualizing God is about equivalent to the number of people who believe. It’s pretty hard to really get inside people’s head to know for sure, but if you were to ask an open ended question like “what is God” I think you would find enormous diversity even within followers of a micro-denomination.
Another line of thinking is that they are all observing the same thing (God) but merely have different experiences/relationships or what have you. After all, I wouldn’t try to tell you that we had factually watched different Star Wars movies were we to disagree on which parts of the story were most important. (If we disagreed strongly enough, we might say it’s as though we had watched different movies, but with broadly similar characters and plots, the fact would remain that in fact we had watched the same movie.)
The story of the three blind men describing an elephant comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant. In short, each of the three blind men feels a different part of the elephant and they disagree vociferously on what it is. But, they are all faced with the same entity.
You think that Catholics (who believe that Christ has two inseparable natures – one human and other divine) and, let’s say, Apostolic Armenians (who belive that Christ has only one nature, simultaneously human and divine) worship different gods?
“merely a theological disagreement”
When you refer to something as “merely” a _______ disagreement (theological, philosophical, moral, political, etc.), you are not taking the disagreement seriously, which is quite insulting to those who do.
Conclusion of this post: So much for subtlety is not a true christian…he has no idea about what jesus taught us.
Can Mitt Romney, Ben Carson, and Marco Rubio all be “true Christians”?
They do not agree about lots of things, starting with Jesus, the Trinity,…
He reminds me of that brand of Christian who, had they actually lived during the time of Jesus, would’ve sided with the Romans. He’s a law & order conservative who doesn’t like it when shit gets stirred by troublemakers.
Moreno Klaus December 25, 2015 at 4:23 am
Conclusion of this post: So much for subtlety is not a true christian…he has no idea about what jesus taught us.
And yet again we have another socialist determined to lecture us all on what Christians really believe. Based on what? The Young Pioneers hand out primers on Christian theology?
mulp December 25, 2015 at 2:22 pm
Can Mitt Romney, Ben Carson, and Marco Rubio all be “true Christians”? They do not agree about lots of things, starting with Jesus, the Trinity,…
Romney is a Mormon and so does not accept the Trinity. A lot of Christians do not think he is Christian for that reason. The Mormons struggle to find acceptance as a Christian sect. Rightly so. Carson is a Seventh Day Adventist and Rubio a Catholic. So they both accept the Trinity.
The Original D December 25, 2015 at 6:13 pm
He reminds me of that brand of Christian who, had they actually lived during the time of Jesus, would’ve sided with the Romans. He’s a law & order conservative who doesn’t like it when shit gets stirred by troublemakers.
Damn straight. The world would have been better off without long haired hippy trouble makers like Jesus. What’s your point?
These faux Christians don’t get lectured on their belief about the trinity or other theological positions, they get lectured because they appear to entirely ignore the key moral teachings and examples set by the man they elevate to divine status.
Truth, I don’t know what is more striking about the two links: the dishonesty or the ignorance.
FYI. In Muslim countries and Eurozone No-Go-Zones that “celebrate the birth of Christ,” Christians are prohibited from practicing their religions and are third-class (behind Muslim women/chattel) persons with no human rights.
It’s not like that everywhere. We should hear the other side of the story too and not allow the extremists to define how we view the other 1.6 billion.
Where is it not like that? When was it not like that? Obviously, you don’t know much about World History from 637 AD up to 1683 when they were finally stopped at the Gates of Vienna.
How did you learn to stop worrying and love the jihad?
Pacifism ends either in appeasement/slavery or conversion to the fight mode.
If not actively supporting the extremists, most (the ones I saw on/after 9/11 were overjoyed) of the other 1.6 billion are sympathizers.
Finally, if you don’t see the writer’s ignorance and dishonesty, you’re equally as ignorant.
I’ve visited quite a number of of Muslim countries: Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Mali, Burkina Faso, Senegal and Indonesia.
In all of these countries, I can openly identify as either atheist or Christian with zero fear of danger, and can openly discuss theological matters with religious people without being accused of ignorance or being evil.
You’re letting the extremists define the other 1.6 billion. And the claim that the other 1.6 billion were overjoyed is a lie. I assume that quite a lot figured something like “you sure had it coming after what you’ve been up to”, but “overjoyed”? Nonsense. Not except for a very small minority of extremists. Meanwhile, increasing numbers of Americans call for carpet bombing or nuking in the Middle East, but you can’t see the hypocrisy.
Seriously, where are those Eurozone no-go-zones? loool …. You will probably feel 100 times safer in Molenbeek than in 90% of any american cities…
Have you been to 90% of American cities? Me neither.
Go to Molenbeek and pass out Christian missionary literature. .
Anyhow, in the spirit of the season, “Good Luck.”
“But Jesus is part of the Trinity and anyone who denies that is not praying to the same God.”
Well, that means millions of commonly referred Christians pray to a different god than Christians like Catholics.
Note that large conservative Christian identified churches reject the Trinity idea, like the LDS church that Mitt Romney’so family is so tied to, and the Seventh Day Adventist church faith which Ben Carson references in his speaking.
Growing up as a PK of a Quaker pastor, a group essentially split on this issue and others, I learned early that Christians don’t agree on what Christianity is. And my dad, in an attempt to heal some rifts in the community and church tried to provide education about multiple faiths. I learned that conservatives can’t handle anyone defining Christian faith differently than they do. And Quakers are out of the baptist movement that rejects any central doctrinal authority, something that resulted in persecution in England and much of Europe, leading to their fleeing to the Americas where they again were persecuted.
It is, in effect, the rejection of the Trinity by the “baptists” that the “freedom of religion” in the First Amendment exists.
And I think one trigger for the religious conflict in the 60s was JFK, who was seen by many as not Christian, and not free to be a real American because he was told what to do by the Pope, reflecting the conflict between Rome and kings of England, leading to multiple civil wars over what religion was the true religion all English subjects must follow.
Basically, I see nothing new in the current religiopolitical crapola today than half a century ago, it’s just the Internet and cable news makes it so mainstream.
Christians and the 1,000 different cults aren’t the issue. The problem is Muslim terrorists. And, bullshit articles like these provide aid and only comfort those with their heads in the sand.
The other article is more interesting but misses the point. The soft power of American Christianity is enormous. A lot of people are trying to ban it as they are concerned about their own religious traditions.
That doesn’t mean that Muslims and Christians are about to sit down and sing Kumbayah. It means Muslims are assimilating.
Jews also faced this problem. They too can only survive if they maintain a boundary with the mainstream and prevent their members from crossing it. They have not had a lot of success. But they did invent Hanuka as a quasi-fake alternative to Christmas. Anything to stop young Jews becoming assimilated.
The American Muslim community will have to face this in the end too. They will have to create and maintain barriers to assimilation.
No one is trying to ban Christianity. But many people are trying to uphold separation of church and state. For example, not using state funds to offer preference to Christian teachings – but Christians are 100% free to practice and preach on their own time and dime (and in a land of free speech, people are not required to stay silent if they disagree).
Who defines “American Christianity”?
Lots of false prophets have run for office based on their claim to represent the true “American Christianity”. Only by being very vague can they get far.
Christians killing Christians over doctrinal conflicts has occurred far more often and longer than for Muslims. Christians killing those deemed not Christian has occurred far more often and longer than for Muslims. This in turn led to the condemnation of religion and atheists killing mostly Christians to purge the source of social conflict – disputes driven by Christianity.
I’ve tried to point out a great number of times over the years that Muslims also venerate Jesus, or that they worship the God of Abraham (same God as the Christians and Jews).
But most often responses are full of hate, calling Islam evil, and throwing very strong insults at key figures and practices in Islam.
Why does it bother faux Christians (ones who may believe to the nth degree, but do not seem to follow the actual teachings of Jesus) so much to learn that Islam and Christianity have so much in common, whether as matters of faith, practice or shared history? They would rather deny these truths than take joy in discovering the significant common ground between Islam and Christianity.
Nathan W December 25, 2015 at 3:21 am
I’ve tried to point out a great number of times over the years that Muslims also venerate Jesus, or that they worship the God of Abraham (same God as the Christians and Jews).
That “also” does not belong there. Muslims do not worship Jesus. Christians do. Muslims can claim that the Jews and Christians are wrong about their religion and they are right. As you do. They can claim that they are the rightful heirs of Abraham. But they cannot expect anyone else to respect their claims.
But most often responses are full of hate, calling Islam evil, and throwing very strong insults at key figures and practices in Islam.
Because, you know, ….
Why does it bother faux Christians (ones who may believe to the nth degree, but do not seem to follow the actual teachings of Jesus)
I would be delighted to hear about your extensive expertise in Christian theology Nate. Where did you study? What degree did you get in theology?
so much to learn that Islam and Christianity have so much in common, whether as matters of faith, practice or shared history?
They have shared history in the way that Jews and Cossacks share history. The rest? Not so much. They have virtually no practice in common. Little in the way of faith.
They would rather deny these truths than take joy in discovering the significant common ground between Islam and Christianity.
They are not truths. They are smug self-serving self-satisfied dismissive claims of people who do not understand, do not believe, but think they know everything.
This Christmas, why not try to work out what people actually believe rather than proclaiming so confidentially that you know best?
My parents have Master’s of Divinity respectively from University of Toronto and Mcgill. I grew up heavily involved in several churches, and in my youth organized conferences which involved things like selecting key speakers to discuss matters of theology. I haven’t attended Bible school, but I am quite familiar with the actual theology of Christians, having had plenty of opportunity to discuss such things with people who are highly educated in theology.
Among other things, I am aware that disagreements about theology have contributed to the great diversity of Christian denominations. Check out this list of denominations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations, and then come back and tell me whether I’m ignorant or whether we are disagreeing on things.
Question: have you ever actually discussed theology with a Muslim? (I have, many many times, in several Muslim majority countries.) You’re the one telling me to “work out what people actually believe”, but outright deny the statement of faith made by Muslims. If they say they worship the God of Abraham, then why don’t you take your own advice and work out what people actually believe?
Personally, I’m more inclined to affiliate myself with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/). I think their teachings are far more likely to lead people to truth.
Nathan W December 25, 2015 at 4:28 am
My parents have Master’s of Divinity respectively from University of Toronto and Mcgill.
Seriously? You are telling me what you know this stuff because of your Mother?
I haven’t attended Bible school, but I am quite familiar with the actual theology of Christians
You may made it abundantly clear that no, you are not.
You’re the one telling me to “work out what people actually believe”, but outright deny the statement of faith made by Muslims. If they say they worship the God of Abraham, then why don’t you take your own advice and work out what people actually believe?
It is that soft power thing. At the moment America is powerful and Muslims want to affiliate. Especially Muslims in the West do not want to stress the differences with Christians. But historically Christians have been weak and Muslims strong. Then they have a different attitude to their God. As in they tend to say it is not the same God. As Jews have done in the past. When Malaysian Courts forbid Christians to use the term “Allah” it is not because the Christians ask them to. It is because Muslims in Malaysia openly proclaim difference.
So which do you believe? The tiny minority in the West who dear persecution or the confident majorities comfortable in their own lands?
You’re changing the topic and ignoring my questions.
Do not assume that edicts of powerful clerics reflects the general views, preferences and behaviours of the population at large. The problem in many Muslim countries is that there is no separation between church and state, and this is no more problematic than it was before religion was ejected from the political realm in most of the West.
Nate claims that Christians believe that God is a trinity and that Jesus is God, and that muslims believe neither of those things, but that they worship the same God. That is blatantly illogical but here Nate is pushing the fashionable social views of the left because that’s his religion and he takes it on faith.
‘Muslims do not worship Jesus.’
No, they merely venerate a prophet, whose origin was due to a virgin birth according to their own holy text. Islam, like Judaism, does not allow the worshipping of human – monotheistic religions tend to be extremely strict in this regard. Christianity, of course, fails in this area, at least to anyone who is not gifted by faith through the holy spirit.
‘Muslims can claim that the Jews and Christians are wrong about their religion and they are right.’
Except Islam does not claim that any worshipper of the Book is wrong about their religion. Which is an interesting contrast to how Christianity has viewed Judaism, of course.
‘They can claim that they are the rightful heirs of Abraham.’
As do Jews (in a sense that excludes anyone not Jewish) and Christians (in a broader sense), a claim that Islam respects in its teachings – see above.
‘They have shared history in the way that Jews and Cossacks share history.’
Well, considering that the Cossacks were Christians, you probably should try for a better comparison when it comes to talking about violent hatred of believers in the same God.
‘They are not truths. They are smug self-serving self-satisfied dismissive claims of people who do not understand, do not believe, but think they know everything.’
You do know that all Christians worship Allah, right? And in precisely the same fashion that all Christians worship Yahweh. It isn’t as if anyone named in the Old or New Testament ever used the word ‘God.’
But one could see how such subtlety is beyond your capabilities.
prior_test December 25, 2015 at 8:14 am
No, they merely venerate a prophet, whose origin was due to a virgin birth according to their own holy text.
So basically you agree with me. You just don’t like the implication of this.
Except Islam does not claim that any worshipper of the Book is wrong about their religion. Which is an interesting contrast to how Christianity has viewed Judaism, of course.
Yes they do. Often and loudly. It is central to the Koran. Of course Muslims, as a later religion in the tradition, have a similar attitude to Christianity and Judaism that Christianity has to Judaism. In the same way that Islam has a similar relationship with even later religions like the Baha’is that Christians do with Islam – and Judaism used to with Christians.
As do Jews (in a sense that excludes anyone not Jewish) and Christians (in a broader sense), a claim that Islam respects in its teachings – see above.
No Islam does not. As you would know if you studied these sorts of things
You do know that all Christians worship Allah, right? And in precisely the same fashion that all Christians worship Yahweh. It isn’t as if anyone named in the Old or New Testament ever used the word ‘God.’
Except they do not. Jews have not thought so. Muslims do not think so. You can translate all those words as “God” but they are different Gods. Calling Vishnu “God” would not make Hindus worship the same God either. The basic concepts are fundamentally different.
Nathan’s being persecuted just like Jesus!
“faux Christians”
Since when did you become Pope empowered to pronounce ex cathedra?
Merry Christmas.
Applause for assimilation. Marketing people do make things more desirable.
The message of Jesus in a nutshell: Don’t be a judgmental prick (give the benefit of the doubt that people can redeem themselves) and help people who need a hand if you can.
But most “Christians” who bother to post online seem to be judgmental pricks are are offended at the notion of collective efforts to help people, and who are eager to engage in strong moral judgments against those who fail to meet their standards. These are very un-Christian behaviors.
I think the average atheist would meet more approval from “Jesus” than those who believe that all wrongdoing will be forgiven if they just pray to Jesus.
The real war on Christmas comes from the right (article by a left-of-centre Toronto paper): http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/12/24/the-real-war-on-christmas-comes-from-the-right.html
Most people to post online are Christians. Some are, as you are, a prick.
Why do you say so? Is there something specific that I said that bothers you? To be clear, I was quite explicit in explaining why I think they’re pricks, while you’re just tossing around insults for no apparent reason.
I mean, I understand that some Christians are quite embarrassed about the amount of hate and lack of charitable ethics demonstrated by a lot of people who masquerade as Christians. If you’re one of those, I don’t think I owe you an apology because you wouldn’t have found it offensive.
Peace, love and good will towards all humans. (Muslims are human too.)
I don’t object to most of what you have said, but as I’ve said, most people who post are Christians. >80% of Americans identify as Christian and the more wealthy, whiter population is more so. Who do you think makes up the bulk of the people on this site? You think most people who post are pricks?
I don’t like the strident Christians either, but the strident atheists as yourself are certainly no better. You probably don’t even recognise you are just as religious in your beliefs as they are.
“I think the average atheist would meet more approval from “Jesus” than those who believe that all wrongdoing will be forgiven if they just pray to Jesus.”
Zarathustra: “Behold, I show you the last man.” (i.e. secularized Christianity)
It would be nice if for once we were not forced to think about Islam. It’s getting tiresome.
Merry Christmas!
Dean Obeidallah is missrepresenting Islam. Sam Harris has this on him: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/never-stop-lying
Helpful link.
The above discussion inspired me to take my “New Catholic Catechism” from my bookshelf to see what the theologians say about Islam. I assume they will have done their homework. Two quotes (roughly translated from Dutch): “Many Muslims believe that the end of the world will be announced through the coming of Jesus.” – “Allah is the one God. He is alive, conscious, almighty and good. He is perfectly one (not a trinity).” – There is also a mention of Christ in connection with (often persecuted) Islamic mysticism, but it’s too vague for translation. – Make of this what you will …
Santa Akbar!!
There are almost as many Christianities as there are self-professed Christians. And that’s nothing new, as there were almost as many different beliefs among the early followers of Jesus as there were followers of Jesus, an apocalyptic prophet who taught and whose followers expected that the End Times were imminent. That’s a surprise to most Christians who falsely believe that it’s a religion that always was – even the Canonical Gospels (there were many Gospels, only four of which became Canonical) have many differences, most small but many quite large. Even the concept of Jesus as Son of God took many forms among the early followers of Jesus. Indeed, the religion we know today as Christianity would be unrecognizable to the historical Jesus, an observant Jew (as were His Disciples). It is the Apostle Paul, who never even met Jesus and was rebuked by those closest to Jesus, Peter and James, who is the creator of the Gentile religion we know as Christianity. How a Jewish sect morphed into the Gentile religion we know as Christianity is itself a miracle. Christianity is and always was a diverse religion, as are all religions, including Islam. Self-professed Christians might better understand Islam and Muslims and their diversity if they knew more about their own religion.
The way people like Nathan treat Christians in thought, word and deed, while telling us that really, if you think about it they actually respect them, is disgusting. As is Tyler’s inability to resist making Christmas about Islam with this tendentious post. Merry Christmas.
ladderff – I’m just calling out the BS “Christians” who cherrypick Bible verses to justify discrimination and hate. For example, those who are pre-occupied with hating gays, Muslims and drug users.
If you’re one of the folks who actually follows the WWJD sort of thinking, then you would point out that there are good Christians too, not take offense at pointing out the hypocrisy of many faux Christians. If you’re offended, then perhaps you should go back and revisit what this whole religion is supposed to be about in the first place.
What’s disgusting is people who claim to follow Jesus, but never learned how to love, forgive, or help anyone who isn’t already on what they perceive to be the right path.
Love your neighbour. In a globalized world, we are all neighbours.
Merry Christmas!
I think we have to put a Straussian reading on this photo selection and linked posts. TC of course benefits greatly from his Leftist connections e.g. NY Times columns. So he can’t criticize Islam directly as it is presently an ally of the Left.
So we have Santa Claus, whose modern incarnation hails from a variety of Western mythos, now enshrouded in Arabic writing. Arabic of course is seen as Islamic domination.
Additionally the female is wrapped in what appears to be a Shayla covering indicating she is from the Gulf region i.e. Wahhabism is the primary Islamic force at work. Wahhabism is fundamentally expansionist by any means necessary sect. The scarf is a symbol of Islamic domination over femininity. TC could have picked a mixed gender or male photo, so the female is intentional. Since feminism is the current dominant social philosophy in the West this can only be seen as another example of Islamic expansionism.
In short TC is warning us that Islam will come to dominant both the myths and rituals of the West, Santa Claus, and its dominant philosophies, Feminism.
Let’s further Straussianize the linked Dean Obeidallah article: TC of course knows his Rudolf Otto and recognizes the moral differences between the New Testament God, and the Allah of the Qu’ran. Dean Obeidallah tries to eliminate these differences. But of course TC sees through this as the practice of idtirar (DO is of Sunni heritage, if he is of Shi’a, it is called Taqiya.)
‘and recognizes the moral differences between the New Testament God, and the Allah of the Qu’ran’
Let us try to stay consistent, shall we? Either it is the moral differences between the New Testament Allah and the Allah of the Qu’ran, or else it is the moral differences between the New Testament God and the God of the Qu’ran. Why people think that using two words from two different languages to express precisely the same thing is a good idea continues to be mystifying. ‘Moral differences’ is interesting, however – I wonder if the official New Testament Dei of the Catholic Church has a moral difference to the German language New Testament ‘Gott’ of the Lutheran Church. Seems like that discussion is still open, actually – at least if the last German pope is to be taken at his word.
Dan – Islam is not an ally of the left. Rather, the left is not intent on making Islam it’s enemy.
Wahhabism and Salafist-like groups are what makes the news, but it is not the primary force in Islam. There isn’t much news in “another peaceful day goes by in some random village”.
On the contrary, there is a very real and very strong Red-Green alliance across Europe where the Left stands with the Islamists (and occasionally even weirder groups like Turkey’s Grey Wolves). The Stop the War Coalition was a good example.
Wahhabi or Salafist-type groups have been making all the weather in the Muslim world for 100 years. You obviously do not follow these things closely but Ernest Gellner had a very good article on the way they completely changed the religious landscape in Algeria in the generation before the War for Independence. Even in quasi-pagan places like Indonesia, they are the dominant intellectual force among Muslims. And winning.
The left does not support the Wahhabists or Salafists. These groups are ridiculously not even close to being the dominant intellectual force in Indonesia.
With all this heated religious discussion,
I have one simple question:
Is anyone packing heat in this room,
as I move toward the door.
Peace.
I don’t have a problem with Muslims celebrating Christmas. Christmas is also quite secular these days. After all there is no Santa Claus or reindeers in the new testament ;-), but the article makes it sound like Islam is a benign religion akin to Christianity. I disagree: Islam needs a reformation to be compatible with Western values, specifically
Allowance of open discussion of the Quran and its interpretation, no issuance of fatwa in response to disagreements and criticisms
Abolish Sharia law and the built in inequality of the sexes
Abolish “ commanding right and forbidding wrong” . In many parts of the Islamic world, any behavior deemed immodest is reason enough to kill a daughter or female relative
Remove imperative to wage Jihad, to convert/fight non believers
Remove focus on after life as more important than present life
No penalty for leaving the faith (Apostasy) . According to Pew: Those who favor the death penalty for leaving Islam: Pakistan (75%), Bangladesh (43%), Iraq (41%).
Tolerance of other religions: Pakistan small Christian minority is subject to intense discrimination and segregation. It is illegal there to declare belief in the Christian trinity. A million Christian foreign workers live in Saudi Arabia but the building of churches is banned even private acts of prayers are banned. When Donald Trump proposed banning Muslims, there was an outcry, including a protest from some Saudi prince. This is very disingenuous as Saudi Arabia effectively bans all Christians since they are not allowed to practice Christianity there.
Islam as it stands is an anachronistic system of beliefs that shackles human thought and behavior and is badly in need of reform to bring it in the 21st century
“Islam needs a reformation to be compatible with Western values”
Strongly agree. A lot of European blood was spilled to achieve related developments with respect to Christianity. While a handful of examples stand out, like Indonesia and perhaps Tunisia or Morocco, I’m not sure that many Muslim majority countries are well poised to fight this battle right now. Moreover, Western interference to promote such change, presumably towards secular (democratic?) law and governance, could easily lead to backlash and have precisely the opposite of the desired effect.
“A million Christian foreign workers live in Saudi Arabia but the building of churches is banned even private acts of prayers are banned. When Donald Trump proposed banning Muslims, there was an outcry, including a protest from some Saudi prince. This is very disingenuous as Saudi Arabia effectively bans all Christians since they are not allowed to practice Christianity there.”
It is not disingenuous, it is an apples to oranges comparison. For all of Saudi Arabia’s many serious flaws, it willingly allows millions of Christians to enter the country to conduct business or to work (they recruit heavily from the 90+% Catholic Philippines). They even ask you to list your religion on the visa application form and do not consider being a Christian to be a disqualifying factor — I think you run into more problems if you put “atheist,” “agnostic,” or “N/A.” Trump, as far as I can tell, wants to take that privilege away from Muslims who seek to visit the United States. Of course, if the issue is freedom to practice religion inside the United States, any Saudi Prince who wants to level a criticism should by all means be called out for hypocrisy. But that is not the issue in Trump’s statement.
In the deep blue East coast city where I live all the Hindus and Muslims celebrate Christmas. For the Muslims, contra Nathan W (who is doing an excellent impression of a a “coexist” bumper sticker) there seems to be no attempt to situate it theologically.It’s the easy listening FM/Toys R Us version of Christmas they are celebrating. Ditto for the Hindus. Some California convert types tried to make an explicitly Hindu alternative called Pancha Ganapati but it failed even worse than Kwanzaa.
for us conceptually it is easy to assimilate Santa Claus as just another God. I remember my son drew a picture of Santa once where he is riding a reindeer (Like the vahans or animal vehicles of the Gods) making the abhay mudra (an open palm gesture symbolizing peace also common in the iconography of Gods) and being worshipped by elves on either side. And why not, Santaism has all the essential parts of a religion such as: morality (goodwill to all), grace (presents), judgement (naughty and nice list), holy days (December 25), mythology (North pole, flying reindeer) , a pantheon (Frosty, Rudolph, Mrs. Claus), special offerings (cookies and milk), taboos (don’t look at him coming down the chimney), scripture (The Night Before Christmas, the works of the prophet Irving Berlin) etc. My children are older now but they still take their obligations to Santa seriously. We don’t have a tree not for ideological reasons but because I’m lazy but they wouldn’t have that. They ended up putting paper decorations and such on a floor lamp we have. That’s because the rituals of Orthodox Santaism require a tree no ifs or buts.
Merry Christmas to one and all.
The author of the first piece clearly has some personal issues to work through, given his description of his background.
He’s confusing the celebration of “Christmas” as a pop-holiday, with Jesus and the religious implications of the holiday. Yes, Christmas trees and Santa and gifts etc. can be found in very many places that are neither Christian, or even have any connection to any Abrahamic religion. You can find that stuff in Saudi Arabia, and in China.
The leap of logic from that, to a religious argument about Jesus, is breathtakingly ignorant and absurd, however. All of that mixed in with a healthy dose of anecdotal evidence collected from “Facebook posts”. Oh well, there’s Muslims on Facebook who have Christmas trees! That must imply something about Jesus and about how Christmas is a Muslim holiday too!
Jesus H. Christ!
Some Muslims in the west have Christmas trees and take the day off, so all this worrying about the radical terrorist jihad and homegrown ISIS stuff is obviously crazy!
“Of course, to the Muslim haters and others on the far right, Muslims celebrating Christmas freaks them out.”
Of course the paradigm is that those that abhor Islam are inevitably on the right and those willing to accommodate them are on the left. There evidently is no political divide among Muslims themselves. They’re just shooting one another solely because the wrong guy became the first Caliph.
This year’s Christmas has been really great, as I was able to save a lot of money for the present; it is all thanks to my work getting bigger. I am a Forex trader and I work with OctaFX broker, as they are the number one broker, so it really helps me with performance since they have low spread of 0.2 pips for all major pairs while there is also high leverage that goes up to 1.500, so that’s why I am able to save so much money and have a blast on this Christmas!
Name one religion in the world where practitioners do not perform some sort of fasting as a part of religious practice.
There’s nothing bizarre about Ramadan. Fasting teaches you to appreciate things more and to have understanding for those who go without.
Fasting is a widespread practice among all the world’s major religions.
Whats wrong with Ramadan? Fasting would actually be good for America…
Your insulting manner has convinced me on nothing, but served as a reminder of how narrow minded some Westerners can be when pointing out similarities between these religions.
I’m arguing that the value of the story of Jesus does not rest on whether or not he is the “Son of God”. This is not ignorant.
Do Muslims worship the God of Abraham? I don’t see how you can argue otherwise. But some Christians prefer to believe that they worship the “devil”, whatever that means.
Geez. What does it matter the name of the son that Abraham was going to sacrifice. We could call him Jim Bob and it changes nothing whatsoever about the relevance of the story.
You call me ignorant a whole lot, but completely fail to substantiate yourself. You are falling into your normal routine of thinking that people are stupid or ignorant when they disagree with you. It is a serious personality flaw.
Good Christians never fast 40 days in the desert, especially the sort of Christian that would be proud to explain what the acronym WWJD means.
> I’m arguing that the value of the story of Jesus does not rest on whether or not he is the “Son of God”. This is not ignorant.
The value of the story for “the narrative”, yes.
Like the Christians of old co-opting (or more accurately, steamrolling) Yule for their own purposes, you want to co-opt (or more accurately, steam-roll) Jesus as Mr. Nice for the modern religion, which of course you want all to bow down to.
How decidedly 2015, boorish too. Safe to say I won’t be printing out your proselytising paragraphs any time soon.
“just a kind man”, “did a lot of nice things”.
Just splendidly tepid and impotent. Are all such platitudes so limp-wristed and anemic? I think your religion needs some more meat in it, yet you’ve gone for the vegetarian spaghetti monster. You’ve forgotten and abandoned the iron-filled goodness of those divine meatballs, heretic.
Contrast with the stubbornness of Early-Mid Christianity (and Islam, for that matter), the temple incident, and “not peace but a sword”. But I’m sure we’d all rather treat such as water under the bridge. After all, it’s almost 2016, we’ve moved on now, haven’t we?
Please give your progressive position some more spice and substance, so we can all join hands and drink deeply in the new year. Looking forward to it.
Witty.
Hey, I figure read them all and figure out what makes sense in your context. At least the Spaghetti Monster can explain global warming
(lack of pirates – see chart at http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/)
Enjoy your day.