Spain Italy fact of the day

Spaniards have became richer than Italians — a heartening indication of Spain’s economic revival but a worrying sign for Italy, the eurozone’s third-largest economy, which is stuck in political gridlock. Spain’s per capita gross domestic product exceeded that of Italy in 2017, according to IMF data published this week that compare countries on a so-called “purchasing power parity” basis. The IMF also forecast that Spain would become 7 per cent richer than Italy over the next five years. A decade ago Italy was 10 per cent richer on the same basis.

That is from Valentina Romei from the FT.

Comments

What do you call four Spaniards drowning?

Cuatro cinco!

"What do you call four Spaniards drowning?"
A good beginning! The Castilian barbarian will fall.

Ah yes, the barbarians that your best soccer players go play for, since they are richer than you are. It must be due to their non-existing military, or their underwhelming natural resources.

We do not spend much money at soccer. We prefer to do useful things with our hard-won money! President Temer revelead a plan to send a Brazilian satellite to space before next decade is over. Also, Brazil is building a scientific base in Antarctica.

Another Antarctic base? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comandante_Ferraz_Antarctic_Station

It burned. We are rebuilding it on much more modern basis. It will astound the world and make the Ice Continent ours! Trivia: Comandante Ferraz was inaugurated the day I was born.

Why did it take over two thousand years to punish Italy for killing Jesus? Of course, pious Christians today are drawn to the authoritarian Trump, just as pious Christians two thousand years ago were drawn to the Romans. Two thousand years? I can't say that it's an irrational choice for pious Christians today. Two thousand years?

At least the faux Brazilian is amusing.

It was not the Italians. It was the Zionists. "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." - Acts 3:13 King James Version (KJV)

Set Thiago Ribeiro free!

"Free at last, free at last / Thank God almighty, I' m free at last"

This is an astoundingly dumb comment.

Did it never occur to you that Trump's opposition -- the Permanent Bipartisan Wartime Coalition -- might be empirically, erm... authoritarian?

Didn't Christianity spread around the world as it did largely on account of the Roman leader Constantine adopting it as state religion on account of its teachings to obey authority? That make President Trump's use of it entirely logical.

Maybe the difference is that Spaniards report more income to the tax authorities than Italians.

An Italian has three different sets of ledger accounts. The first and true ledger showing the most amount of money is for his eyes only. The second ledger showing much less money is given to the tax collector. The last ledger showing the virtually no money is given to his wife.

Street lights in Italy: In Milan, they are the rules. In Rome, suggestions. In Naples, just decorations.

+1. As one who has driven all over Italy, I leave the car in long-term parking when in Naples.

a worrying sign for Italy, the eurozone’s third-largest economy, which is stuck in political gridlock.

What does political gridlock have to do with Italy's economy?

A house divided again itself won't appreciate over the years.

It's bizarre to cite Italy's political instability as if it's a recent phenomenon, and not a consistent trend since the end of World War II.

It's bizarre to cite Italy's political instability as if it's a recent phenomenon, and not a consistent trend since the end of the Roman Empire.

gridlock = instability?

I visited Italy a couple of years ago and was surprised by the level of poverty there. Rome is very carefully kept together, but once you go outside of the center you see a lot of homeless. Genoa at night reminded me of NYC in the 80s. Not great.

Did you go to southern Italy? Some beautiful areas but dirt poor.

Be sure to experience the packs of wild dogs running around the Napoli Centrale railway station.

Local colour!

That is also not new -- have you read _Christ Stopped at Eboli_?

"The seasons pass today over the ceaseless toil of the peasants, just as they passed three thousand years before Christ. No message, human or divine, has reached this stubborn poverty."

I visited Spain around the time Tyler did in 2012 and reached the opposite conclusion:

"I was in Madrid a month ago. It does not feel like it is falling apart yet. Get down to La Latina (or Mercado San Miguel) and enjoy some Jamon."

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/06/spain-fact-of-the-day-2.html
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/05/what-views-can-you-hold-about-spain.html

I was in Madrid in 2007. It was gorgeous. I was back in 2011, looked like Hell compared to 2007. Garbage everywhere. Went back in 2015. Back to gorgeous.

So, I've read this blog for a long time but never commented. I have to ask though, what is the deal with the Brazilian dude? Is he just someone who is seriously autistic or is it just some long, drawn out, unfunny joke?

No funnier than the Libertarian-Authoritarian Axis.

It is a fable that power is equal to strength. Look at Kwame Brown. Look at Mayor Quimby. Thiago's tumor is a Belgian sense of humor. Look, do I think it's funny? Never have, never will.

I mean, I get why that guy Ken M. does his schtick. he became internet famous for it. This Thiago guy though....He's playing to such a small audience. It seems like he's mentally ill

No, I am not. I am very stable, looked up to by my neighbours and colleagues and in talks to run cor Congress in 2016. Maybe, you are mentally ill.

I mean 2022.

I think you're missing the point - it's not a schtick.

It's hard to say, rarely to trolls have such a commitment to a character. He's definitely a lonely, weird dude, but he's fun to mess with and says some funny things, even clever ones sometimes.

Don't be such a cheapskate. He's funny and smart, and more than sometimes. Adding a little humor is better than adding drunken repetitive commenting, like Rayward.

I've come to believe that Thiago is Brazilian (to speak to your comment about commitment to character). I mean, who would learn the words to significant Brazilian songs*, such as their anthem?

(*Significant to Brazilians.)

"He's funny and smart, and more than sometimes. "
Thanks. You are not bad, either.
"I mean, who would learn the words to significant Brazilian songs, such as their anthem?"
Actually, in the 1930's, Japanese immigrants in Brazil used to teach their children the National Anthem (just the pronuntiation, not the meaning) as a ruse to make the education inspectors think their education was wholesome and keep their Japanese-controlled schools open. They would have gotten away wth it if WWII hadn't forced our government to close down their schools and Japanese-language newspapers and take away their radio sets. Also, we have many anthems. Not only the National Brazil Anthem, but also the Proclamation of Republic Anthem, the Army Anthem, the Independence Anthem, the Flag Anthem, the states and city anthems. When I was a schoolchild, we used to sing at least one anthem every day. The words still come easily to me.

What's your explanation for why he thinks Brazilians speak Spanish?

You are pathetic. I misplaced the words "Portuguese" and "Spanish". Otherwise, you would have to explain the much bigger mystery of a, say, American thinking all South America (except for French Guyana) speaks Portuguese and Brazil speaks Spanish instead things being the other way around.

It's cruel of you to assume that Americans wouldn't know about the patches of South America that speak English or Dutch. They are renowned for their grasp of history and geography, Americans.

Well, they go learning about the world as they invade. At this point, they must have learned they weren't welcome as liberators in Iraq.

There's a "South" America? Is that the one just below Texas?

When Spain joined the EU there was a mild hollowing out of the industrial infrastructure set up by Franco. A lot of it was sold off to the Germans and so on. Italy has big companies with famous brands. Spain doesn't really except for Zara.

So I find it hard to believe that the Spanish are now doing so well. They have tourism and .... what? You know, it is a lovely country, but they are not Germans.

It can't be that the Dutch and the Germans are transferring them so much more money than the Italians? Or that they are all lying, just that the Italians are lying more.

Less than thoughtful people often characterize a foreign country this way, using stereotypes: Spain only has Zara and tourism, Italy has fashion and tourism, Greece has olives and tourism, etc. All largish nations have factories that make stuff, and farms producing multiple products, and services for everything under the sun.

"All largish nations have factories that make stuff, and farms producing multiple products, and services for everything under the sun."

This reminds me of Roissy's quip about basketball players. Sometimes they throw the ball through the hoop, sometimes they miss.

That was a funny one. Reminds you that Roissy was once an insightful commentator, before his slow descent into white trashionalism.

Roissy handed his blog over to a group a long time ago. The crap on the blog now, that's not him.

Interesting. When did this happen? If I remember right Robin Hanson used to link to Roissy at some point.

I believe you mean ascent, and certainly nothing to do with trash.

Grifols is a Spanish company that sells blood products.

There are plenty of big, successful Spanish companies that are unknown in the US. Santander in banking, Repsol in energy, ACS in construction, Telefonica in telecoms etc.

As far as Italy goes, southern Italy must be struggling. Northern Italy seems about as prosperous as most northern European countries.

+1. Spain has no Northern Italy to skew the numbers. Compare Spain to Southern Italy and Greece for a more balanced view.

The simplest explanation is that a lot more Spaniards work. While the unemployment rate is worse in Spain, this is dwarfed by the gap in labor force participation: 58% in Spain, versus 49% in Italy. In this, Spain is much closer to Germany(60%) or Britain(62%):

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.ZS

This is driven by a combination of more male layabouts and more women who think of themselves as 1950s conservative homemakers while in practice being no different from the men, having apparently missed the parts about "getting married" and "raising a family."

+1. But I have a question: people opting out of work force can explain lower average income, but can that explain the presence of more homelessness/destitution?

Wow.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread or misinterpret; I am simply curious about that there is more homelessness/destitution in Italy.

Spain has a deceptively large banking sector, industrial manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, steel mill in the north, and oil refineries (the crude comes from abroad). You might not know them because their exports don't go to the US, bit to the rest of Europe, South America and China.

What is impressive is that they are having sensible growth with a political system under a lot of stress, and an entire generation of well educated Spaniards which emigrated during the recession and haven't gone back.

This is not what rich means. Rich means wealth. This is about income.

According to Credit Suisse, Italy’s per capita wealth is $124,000 versus $63,000 for Spain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult

Demographics.

1. An acquaintance of mine is Brazilian by birth, but married to an Italian husband and lives mostly in Italy. She has three children -- and strangers abuse her in the street for having more than one. (Not more than two, as would be the case in a numerate society or an Orson Scott Card novel.) This is a people that is determined to die.

But Spain is also doomed. Check this out: https://www.indexmundi.com/spain/age_structure.html

Notice how Francisco Franco kept Spain alive -- literally. He died 42 years ago.

Dude's fuckin retarded.

Why did it take over two thousand years to punish Italy for killing Jesus?

Italy and Spain is the ideal controlled experiment of the effect of land and urban regulation on the economy. Spain's more relaxed regulation allowed to accommodate newcomers from all over Europe to create a customer service hub in Barcelona. It helped their successful retail chains to grow fast and conquer the world (Zara vs Benetton). Relaxed land regulation helped creating large farms in Andalusia. In 20 or 30 years we'll compare California vs Arizona/Texas and get the same results.

Precisely a year ago the same FT writer made the same comparison between Italy and Spain. A year ago it was "sticky wages", today is "political instability".

The article from 2017 looks more interesting compared to the recent one, make your own judgement: https://www.ft.com/content/fd833054-1538-11e7-b0c1-37e417ee6c76

msgkings April 19, 2018 at 7:35 pm 39

Sorry but I can't be bothered working out where in that nest of follow ups this should go

Less than thoughtful people often characterize a foreign country this way, using stereotypes: Spain only has Zara and tourism, Italy has fashion and tourism, Greece has olives and tourism, etc. All largish nations have factories that make stuff, and farms producing multiple products, and services for everything under the sun.

I prefer to think of it as data, not as a stereotype. I think that Spain got screwed over when it joined the EU. Italy got to protect FIAT but Spain could do nothing about SEAT. However Fiat was a global brand. SEAT never really was. Olivetti was a global brand. What is the Spanish equivalent?

Yes, all large-ish countries have factories and services. But not all factories and services are equal. The Spanish do not do well at this.

Well, let's look at 2016 data. Spain 35.5 billion Italy 15.1 billion of car exports value. https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/show/all/8703/2016/

It's a weird use of "screw over" and "protect" when you see the numbers. Ownership is important, but manufacturing is the one that generates middle-class jobs.

Perhaps you need to let go the concept of "brands", it's so 80s.

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