Indonesia fact of the day

Even though Indonesia boasts the largest Muslim population of any nation, it witnessed, in marked contrast to Egypt, a steady growth in the size of the Christian community in the course of the twentieth century.  The Roman Catholic community grew from only 26,000 in 1900 to 500,000 in 1940, and to 6 million in 2003.  The number of indigenous Protestants rose from 285,000 in 1900 to 1.7 million in 1940, and to perhaps 16 million in 2003.  What is more, it is estimated that 1 million of the new Christians converted in the course of the century were of a Muslim rather than a traditional religious background.

That is all from the new and interesting Brian Stanley, Christianity in the Twentieth Century: A World History, published by Princeton University Press.


This is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.

The why didn't he do it earlier?

Cut Him some slack, He was busy helping football players win playoff games, and responding to Facebook likes and forwards for children suffering from cancer.

Can I simply just say what a comfort to find someone
that reallyy understands what they're discussing oon the net.
You definitely know how to bring an issue to light and make it important.
More and more people have to look at this and understand this side of youur story.
I was surprised you are not more popular given that you surely have the gift.

Cause he wanted to rub it in your face.

So, a petty god, then?

I mean you are created in His image. You walked right into that one nerd.

Just don't complain that the call to prayer for Muslims is too loud.

Wikipedia: "Following a purported coup in 1965 officially blamed on the Communist Party of Indonesia, around 1/2 million were killed in an anti-communist purge. Following the incident, the New Order government had tried to suppress the supporters of PKI, by applying a policy that everyone must choose a religion, since PKI supporters were mostly atheists. As a result, every Indonesian citizen was required to carry personal identification cards indicating their religion. The policy resulted in a mass religion conversions, topped by conversions to Protestantism and Catholicism (Christianity)."

In his early years, Mel Gibson did some outstanding films in collaboration with fellow-Australian Peter Weir (the director), including the 1982 film The Year of Living Dangerously (co-written and directed by Weir). The setting was Indonesia during the overthrow of President Sukarno.

One of my favorite movies, and probably Gibson's best.

A main character in the film is Billy Kwan, a Chinese-Australian dwarf. Gibson plays a journalist, who has difficulty finding sources for the unfolding story. Billy takes a liking to Gibson's character and introduces him to key political figures. What's fascinating is that the part of Billy was played by Linda Hunt. She won an academy award for her performance. Yes, she.

+1, that was interesting

Yes. I remember seeing this movie on the TV as a child and it made a durable impression on me. I remember vividly Billy Kwan saying "My body is a joke!" (not sure it is the exact sentence in the original version, I saw it in French, it was "Mon corps est une farce !"). I am really surprised to learn that the actor who played the role was a women.

This will destabilize the country. I predict more extremism over the coming decades

Indonesia is a secular country and Muslims there practice a form of Islam different from the Middle East. Furthermore, the native religion, still deeply ingrained in the population forbids violence except in cases of being a victim of a crime or defense of self or family. They are also super laid back to the point anything is likely “ good enough”, including simple tasks like painting a wall. The people there lack any ambition for jihad or practically anything. Starbucks will run out of coffee for days at a time and they’ll be mystified if you don’t understand!

Check out American Interest - Indonesia's Saudi Arabia problem:

"What the Journal fails to mention are the deeper tensions that complicate the seemingly rosy relationship: namely, the growing concerns in Indonesia about Saudi funding of Salafi Islamic activity, which is having a profound impact on the nature of Islam in the world’s most populous Muslim-majority country."

'The Act of Killing' (2012) is a very powerful and disturbing documentary about the killers in those events. Joshua Oppenheimer meets some of of them who never were made responsible (i.e. they won) and let's them reenact the massacres on film. This way they are confronted with their doings as is the watcher. As far as I remember it doesn't go in on the role of religion in all of that. I do recommend it though. It gives a very unique insight into the minds of such horrible people and how they still are very human. Not an easy watch though.

Until the end of World War II, Indonesians had a common enemy, the Dutch, but otherwise they had little in common (just look at a map). After the Dutch left, the Javanese colonized the other islands. Much of the Indonesian growth in Christianity is a way for those living in these other islands to resist the imperialism of the Javanese, who are mainly Muslim. For example, see
Sulawesi and Western Papua New Guinea.

True. "Indonesia" is at best a geographical expression. The country known as Indonesia would be more accurately described as "The Javanese Empire". The traditionally Muslim areas such as Aceh and central Java are just as Islamic as Egypt and not becoming noticeably more Christian.

The real problemas in Indonésia is the Chinese.

In the race riots of the 1960s, they murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese Indonesians. That good enough for you?

There are many left conspiring.

Wow, TR, you don't do that racist thing half way do you.

There is nothing racist about acknowledging the truth. We are not here to indulge in fantasy, but in political and economic reality. Either we destroy the Chinese or they destroy us. They are the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind in its long climb from the swamp to the stars.

Are you actually advocating genocide? Exactly what do you mean by "destroy the Chinese"?

Preemptive nuclear strikes against Red China. "Better dead than Red". A full economic embargo. Unequal treaties. Only crazy people think the Castros or Khamenei are worse than China.

I wish I could strangle every Chinese baby in its crib myself, but I am just one person. I will need help.

Stop impersonating me.

No, YOU stop impersonating ME

The 21st century, by contrast, has been a little rougher on Indonesia's Christians.

A lot of conversions came from a rush of missionaries to the inner land animist tribes. Through schools, they converted the young and created an intergenerational cultural disconect. It is now not uncommon to have a string of upriver villages with different christian faiths

To no one's surprise Tyler comes forth to selectively present stuff and give an exaggerated impression of Islam's tolerance.

The first thing to be kept in mind is that Indonesia has very different laws levels of fanaticism in different states. Bali is majority Hindu (so for example, Christian population in Bali would tell us nothing about Muslim tolerance). Aceh has mostly Sharia customs and laws (so please spare the "more tolerant than middle east" bullshit).

Java is far better than Aceh, and yet recently Muslims in Java rioted -
because a Christian accused of blasphemy was given "too lenient a sentence":

Now let us come to Tyler's quote: if you just inspect the numbers, it follows that an overwhelming majority of the Christians were converted from the native religion, even if we accept the sentence "it is estimated that 1 million of the new Christians converted in the course of the century were of a Muslim rather than a traditional religious background." Allowing conversion from the native religion to Christianity doesn't say much about Muslims' tolerance, if anything they may be preventing any chance for revival of native religion.

Be very suspicious of anything that comes from Tyler on Islam - the fellow is horribly mood-affiliated in favor of Islam and can super-cleverly present a selection of facts to get you to believe what he wants.

blah, I think you are a little over-reacting here. The quote is from a book by Brian Stanley, not Tyler Cowen, and the only thing Tyler says about it is "interesting". And I didn't interpret the quote as being pro-Islam: it just says that in Indonesia the number of Christians has gone up, while it has gone down in Egypt (and the Middle East, one could add). The quote doesn't imply that the Muslims of Indonesia accepted conversions to Christianity (apostasy) of some of them with good grace.

But thanks for this informative message anyway.

Yes, I was applying my priors about Tyler based on what I had read of his earlier posts. I agree that if one is to read the post just from first principles then I am over-reacting and not just a little.

What I was doing was mood-attribution, the twin-sibling of mood-affiliation. If mood-affiliation is Tyler then mood-attribution is Tyrone...

Hmm, the next post by Tyler supports your view: "I am happy to live near Somali and Yemeni women in hijab (or not)". To me it seems to require a large amount of sadism to like seeing people (women, in that case) walking around by 100 degrees with 100% humidity wearing a thick black clothing covering almost all the surface of the body and head. But I agree that your explanation of Tyler's post by "mood affiliation" is simpler and more plausible.

BTW you hadn't responded to this question of mine :(

Smart people, motivated by money. They strictly control labor unions which were the chief source of radicalism and communist subversion.

it is estimated that 1 million of the new Christians converted in the course of the century were of a Muslim rather than a traditional religious background.
Officially Apostasy
Death penalty Offense and that's direct from the Big M

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