Our regulatory state is failing us

CA requires 664 hours of training to become a Police Officer, but 1,600 hours of training to become a cosmetologist.

That is from Sheel Mohnot, sources at the link.


For improving the title - "Our regulatory state is killing us"

Or “Public Choice economics in action”

The sole purpose of the training hours for cosmetology is to create an artificial barrier to entry and thus create a wage floor.

The police already achieve this via their union, so there’s less of a need to create a bottleneck

After 660 hours, the cops are trying to cut your hair with a baton! They found the right spot, but maybe another 1k hours to learn to use the scissors isn't unreasonable.

Yeah, right. "Our" regular state.

Fuck California, and all the other blue hellholes.

As a former Californian, I'm sympathetic up to a point. But would add that Alabama requires 1500 hours for a cosmetology license, and 3000 hours if you want to teach it. Same with Tennessee. If regulatory headaches were the only difference between these places, I'd still be living in the state with better weather, food, and drivers who understand the concept of "pass left, drive right."

"and drivers who understand the concept of "pass left, drive right.""

That didn't use to be the case in Tennessee. It's a relatively new phenomena that drivers don't know to move to the right side of the road. It's definitely become much worse over the last 20 years. And a lot of drivers don't even seem to know what to do when you flash your lights behind them.

You must have lived in Redding. No one in the bay area moves over, people are constantly undercutting in order to get around some old ahole driving a new Mercedes, who thinks he owns the fast lane.

"664 hours of training to become a Police Officer, but 1,600 hours of training to become a cosmetologist"

Well, them comets are complicated things.

Not comets.

Before we let someone be a cosmonaut, I think they should be well -trained. Remember what happened on the Challenger?

That is a horse shit title

This is because cosmetologists and operators of cosmetology schools control the state board and use their power to restrict entry into the field and create demand for cosmetology classes. This obvious instance of abusive regulatory capture (sadly not uncommon for cosmetologists) really doesn't tell us whether or not the number of hours of required police training is too high or too low.

How is this different than what drug companies, Disney Corp, "Wall Street", et al do?

I remember when google, built in large part by users (if it had only 10,000 users, would anyone buy google stock), wanted to simply register with the SEC and then do its ipo by directly auctioning shares to its (registered?) customers with no added fee but share registration costs (the paperless ownership record system), and nothing going to financial and legal advisor institutions and google handling all sales and marketing.

Congress has removed more barriers than Wall Street was willing to allow when they were seeking lots more customers. But Wall Street in getting SEC rules requiring workers prove they could afford to take risks, used the excuse that google directly selling shares to customers would result in workers giving too much money to google and depriving their kids of food and clothing for the sales being done by Wall Street because only Wall Street could protect workers from poverty.

Well, other than being another example of a bad regulation, it's completely different but, that said, I'd certainly be in favor of getting rid of the SEC's 'sophisticated investor' rules. And just as I'd be in favor of letting people make their own risk decisions when it comes to buying stocks, I'd also favor the same when it comes to the FDA and medicines.

Our regulatory state is beating up protesters and lying about it - that's not a failure, it is a taxpayer funded feature.

Somebody's gotta do it.

Still, if it's gotta be done, we could get it cheaper than this.

I hear the boogbois will do it for the cost of a few Hawaiian shirts.

rioters just beat up the regulatory state
In minneapolis for 55 million American dollars

Given the demands of high-end makeup artistry and pervasive cosmetics market in Hollywood, perhaps I can believe it.

Wow, nice big picture thinking. Wouldn’t have though of that factor.

It's not. Similar rules in many states. Guild protection racket.

US cosmetologists, rent-seeking and living off the fat of the land.

The cosmetologists are bad the but cosmetology school operators are much worse.

Cosmetology is a big business here, both in the surgical fields, “Permanent makeup“ and makeup art for any level occasions. Porn is huge in the Valley, makeup artistry and cosmetics take all forms in that niche. Both NYC and LA are Mecca’s for
cosmetology and cosmetic procedures. In fact, they represent the cosmetics industry more than any other metropolis. So it would probably be inaccurate to say that Fargo, North Dakota has the same booming makeup and cosmetics industry compared to LA. And surely their standards would not make the cut of Hollywood set. I have nothing against Fargo, it was a good movie too.

I don't know if you've been to NYC, but on average restaurants, libraries, etc are usually not as good as elsewhere in the world.

Average is much lower out in NYC, but the high-end outliers are a fact. It is a weird skew, where the average citizen has it worse off but the tippy top has a dream.

California is moving to the same.

That's confusing demand with supply! :-)

The police officer who is involved in a study with a business school on placement of bus routes in poor neighborhoods observed that policemen should have as a ride along partner a mental health professional to observe how they handle domestic disputes and the mentally ill.

This kind of hands on training benefits both professionals.

The other observation the office made was that one police force in an adjoining territory takes the mentally ill to the hospital and not the police station and jail; whereas the other department very infrequently takes the mentally ill to the hospital.

This tells you something and would be an interesting research project for someone to pick up.

It's generally a waste of time to take the mentally ill to the hospital if they cannot be committed involuntarily. So they languish in the streets until they do something serious enough to land them in prison rather than a mental health institution (which should not be confused with the insane asylums that are our universities).

Sockpuppy Rioting:

I don't believe that is true. People on drugs. People who need drugs or to take their drugs. People who need diagnosis. Those aren't people who go to a hospital with a psych ward.

In Canada: "Can the police take a person to a hospital for a psychiatric examination?
An officer can take a person into custody and take them to a hospital for a psychiatric examination if the officer believes that:

The person has a mental disorder; and
They are acting in a disorderly manner involving violence or athreat of violence to themselves or another person; and
The person’s mental disorder is likely to cause them to harm themselves or another person. Sometimes an officer will take the person to the hospital instead of charging them with a criminal offence (if they have grounds to do so).
The police can also take a person for a psychiatric examination if they have an order signed by a doctor or a justice of the peace. These orders must have been signed within seven days of the date the police take the person to the hospital. These assessments are called “Form 1” (signed by a doctor) or “Form 2” (signed by a justice of the peace) assessments."

In the United States: "Police officers have a legal obligation to respond to calls and to provide services 24 hours a day, seven days a week. With respect to persons with mental illness, police in all states have the power to transport persons for psychiatric evaluation and treatment when there is probable cause to think that they are a danger to themselves or to others because of their mental condition.

The police are typically the first and often the sole community resource called on to respond to urgent situations involving persons with mental illness. They are responsible for either recognizing the need for treatment for an individual with mental illness and connecting the person with the proper treatment resources (7) or making the determination that the individual's illegal activity is the primary concern and that the person should be arrested (8). This responsibility thrusts them into the role of primary gatekeepers who determine whether the mental health or the criminal justice system can best meet the needs of the individual with acute psychiatric problems (9)." https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ps.53.10.1266

Sockpupy Rioting: you hide behind a sock-puppy name because you do not want to be tarnished by your ignorance and just want to throw out beliefs without checking what is true or not.

Sockpuppy is a lazy puppy.

Last sentence of first paragraph should end with a question mark and exclamation mark.

The Sheriff of Cook County Illinois makes the joke that she runs the biggest mental health facility in the state. Anyone who works in law enforcement will tell you that they spend more time of "mad people" than "Bad people."

I don't think training is the problem, especially as a higher percentage of people come in with criminal science degrees. It's about the norms in the department:

"Derek Chauvin, who pressed his knee into George Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes, was the field training officer for one of them."

On that, Justin Amash's list is good:

End qualified immunity.
End civil asset forfeiture.
End the drug war.
End overcriminalization.
End no-knock warrants.
End militarization of police.
End mandatory minimums.


> End qualified immunity.

Yes, and for DAs too, as well as all gov officials. If my city decides to let rioters destroy my business because they failed to maintain order when they could have, then that should cost the city.

Too many times the cities have decided to let hordes destroy businesses in order to "blow off steam". Which is mighty generous considering that is simply an example of the gov deciding to had a business owner's labor over to the mob.

Or, damages due to gov failing to protect should be recouped in the form of withheld property taxes. If I lose $100K in merchandise due to rampant rioting the gov opted NOT to tamp down, then that should be $100K in property and sales tax I should get to withhold.

>Yes, and for DAs too, as well as all gov officials.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it?

There is no way Tyler, or any other Democrat, is going to to support ending qualified immunity for all (or even most) government officials.

When they say "End qualified immunity," they only mean for cops. Which is utter BS.

Who is Justin Amash? Sounds painful. His list btw, from Friday, is in fact just a cut and paste from parts of the The Justice in Policing Act of 2020, which was drafted on Friday and introduced into the House today.

He is a member of Congress, a libertarian leaning independent, and ex-Republican, who is somewhat on his own these days.

He's one of those poor guys that was trapped into being anti-anti-lynching.

Not leaning any longer, fell all the way over. And pay no mind to ol' ray he's just here to search the page for the word "patent".

As a libertarian, I guarantee Amash has had a list like that for many years.

Good list. I'd add 'end 3 strike rules' and 'end the revolving door the courts have become'.

Ending the 3 strikes rule would ACCELERATE the revolving door of the courts. So which is it?

And PS: It's a suck-ass list.

We have an under-incarceration problem in the USA. A big one. End mandatory minimums? Up yours, moron.

Do we even have the room to over-incarcerate? I mean, we've already lapped the rest of the world in incarceration numbers. Fortunately there's no hint at all that this might indicate any kind of underlying problems.

I think it was Steven Levitt who said that we have cruelly long sentences to make up for the fact that few criminals are ever caught. So the unlucky ones get it good and hard.

This suggests we need much more policing to greatly increase the likelihood that someone who commits a crime will be caught. Then we can begin to rationalize incarceration, and not before.

That's a libertarian wish list, and most items on the list are not directly related to improving the training and the culture of police departments. Even the things that are more directly related won't do much either. E.g., the bugbear of qualified immunity is greatly exaggerated:

"when one considers all the Section 1983 cases brought against law enforcement defendants—each of which could expose law enforcement officials to burdens associated with discovery and trial—just seven (0.6%) were dismissed at the motion to dismiss stage and thirty-one (2.6%) were dismissed at summary judgment on qualified immunity grounds."


I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the general decline since about 2005 in the Economic Freedom Index ratings in both the Fraser and Heritage measures has been driven more substantially than any other factor by the increase in employment regulations at the state level in the US economy, with the example of cosmetology regulations being a prime example. I mean really, we need the state to make sure we (especially the female part of "we") do not have bad hair days?

Maybe we can cross train and/or combine police force training with cosmetology and improve both. Well groomed police officers and no-nonsense cosmetologists.

The reason barbers were originally regulated was public health.

It seems an odd thing to forget in the middle of a pandemic.

Some nice 1915 sanitary regulations on barber shops here. From the US Surgeon General of that time.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for the long-hair resurgence, as the country takes on a revolutionary 60’s vibe. Men with long hair are full of fickle, protesting whimsy. I do think many men have had to bypass the barber shop because of restrictions and do enjoy the new, bohemian coif.

I enjoyed the long hair for a while, but then it bugged me, and I went full buzz cut in the backyard.

Luckily we had electric shears put away in the cupboard, another thing sold out on Amazon.

Actually, I am in favor of requiring, in the application of a marriage certificate, a certificate of cosmetology training, so that each spouse may cut the other spouse's hair during a pandemic.

I've suggested to my wife that it is a sign of trust that she would allow me to cut her hair, since she cuts mine.

Evidently, she doesn't trust me with her hair. Sad.

(Haiku, for Bill)

Frame your request

In the shape

Of kindness

I know she trusts me with a scissors
She may think I have poor depth perception.
I might take a clay modeling course
Buy a mannequin with hair and practice.

Buy a mannequin and 20 wigs. When you’ve cut that many you might be ready.

(Actually I’m semi serious: I cut my children’s hair during the past 3 months. I wish — and they wish — I’d practiced first. All those haircuts I had, and I never paid attention... sigh.)

Together we managed the buzz cut. Somewhat hilariously the clippers stopped working halfway through. I just had to take them apart and oil them.

-1, innumeracy

How many hours out of the 1600 do you think are about public health concerns?

I'm not sure which is sadder, that you think "how many hours" cancels the public health history, or that you might find someone foolish enough to follow that illogic.

Yes, other things are true at the same time genius.

But the public health history is certainly deep.

Gen Mattis: Trump is undermining the Constitution.

Skeptical: -1, Gen Mattis. Don't you know how many hours has spent playing golf!

It's possible that noun "training" isn't the same in the two comparison points e.g., academy hours vs. apprenticeship hours.

But you also have to adjust for the 'scoff factor'... that some cops mock the training and ignore the guidelines they are asked to follow by their employers - stuff that would cost you your job in any other business.

The police training stat is misleading: "The Regular Basic Course (academy) is the entry-level training requirement for many California peace officers." This is one of many courses required before you can get hired as a cop. There are half a dozen other training courses listed here: https://post.ca.gov/applicant. After these classes, new cops presumably get job specific, precinct specific, and career goal specific training. I highly doubt someone gets that course and then immediately gets a squad car and full privileges as a cop. Conversely, the cosmetologist is probably getting certification to do something they already know how to do.

I read online that IQ and aptitude tests for police candidates are graded on a normal curve and candidates that score too high, or too low, are disqualified. So it favors a sort of middling, bumbling average. Not sure if that's true but some jobs do discriminate against 'overqualified' candidates.

Not sure what that has to do with my comment. My point was that this is another typical liberal bending the facts to create a red herring.

Your point is also a red herring. Protesters don’t object to cops with average IQs. In fact, people with low to average IQs do great in decision making roles such as EMTs, call center workers, restaurant managers, nurses, clerks, etc.

The protesters and most people who dislike to police object to some cops who are: at best ass holes and, at worst, murderous bullies who pray on the disadvantaged.

Yes, we need low-IQ nurses and EMTs. It's hard to tell parody from someone's actual opinion.

You don't want cops who are going to be bored. You also don't want to invest in training just to have them leave for a better job.

How many people are killed or harmed by cosmetology workers, and featured in viral videos?

Clearly the failure is in requiring too little education and supervised work training to become a police officer allowed to carry and use a gun and other tools designed to harm people, compared to the tools of scissors to cut hair, combs, curlers to shape hair, files to shape and polish nails, dyes to color hair, etc.

Note, barbers were once in the health care field, bleeding customers.

Police claim they had to shoot a person ten feet or more away who might be an old school barber, because he feared for his life. I suppose cosmetology regulations prohibiting bleeding gives police the justification to shoot old school barbers for violating currrent cosmetology regulations?

Oregon requires 2,000 hours. So Oregonians must be better groomed than Californians. ;-)

However, the 2,000 hours includes the full suite of skills (I asked the person who cuts my hair about this): manicures and pedicures, hair dying (there are some chemicals involved where you need to know what you're doing), barbering, "esthetics" (I think that's skin care including waxing, again there are machines and substances where there's some safety risks if the operator is unskilled), etc. etc.

I believe that unlike MD's who have to go through the whole suite of basic stuff, a barber in Oregon can do just the barbering classes and skip the other stuff, which would vastly cut down the number of hours required. Similarly for manicurists, etc.

Meanwhile we are too busy banning Brazilians and criticizing this gallant ally of ours instead of minding our own damn businesses and saving American lives. I have never felt so ashamed of America.

body waxing that area is violence &
predisposes to bacterial skin infections.
next on the elite leftist cancelation list - sir Winston Churchill

Churchill waxed his nether regions??

dunno about that but
elite leftists wanna wax churchill.
silence is violence

And probably zero hours to become a bank regulator

Nor is there any training, testing or certification needed to become a member of the US House of Representatives or US Senate. Or the US President.

Good luck with that one.

My unsolicited advice for the future: a comment letter to a regulatory agency is more likely to get somewhere if you avoid phrases like "total lunacy". If you're not trying to persuade but just writing because you find it fun, knock yourself out, but otherwise I would recommend considering the audience.

"1,600 hours of training to become a cosmetologist."

It's tough handling weightlessness...

Seems like the tweet is more like fake news than good information.

The basic course is a requirement to then get into the Field Training Programs/Police Training Program.

Looking at one of the over views of the basic course seems the time required depends on where you want to be an officer. However I did not notice any listing 664 hours for the basic course. https://post.ca.gov/Portals/0/post_docs/training/BasicCourseIntensiveStats.pdf

I wonder if you can show up as an officer candidate and show the police chief your twitter feed that tells him/her that you only need this number of hours. Twitter has replace Google as the search tool of choice for Knowledge under 144 characters. YouTube is the gold standard.

Yes, that's what what I wondered as well John. (And that's even if we set aside that the 1,600 hours for cosmetology is probably ridiculous and more than anything a sign of regulatory capture by members of the profession who use the licensing board to restrict competition).

This is a minimum set by the state. What do most departments in the state actually require, min/max? Is there a requirement for probationary / field training time spent riding with an experienced officer?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but my best guess is that a simple tweet oversimplifies this process.

How many hours are required
Of teacher training
For college faculty.

I've taught in graduate school and law school as an adjunct, and no faculty or anyone turned up to observe my teaching style. It was great, or so I thought, as many full time faculty members think of their own style and teaching performance.

How many of your college professors--particularly the Asian one's who taught math as their second language to their native language--could have used some teacher training?

I once suggested that one of the best things we could do for our Chinese research students was to send them to elocution lessons.

One particularly dimwitted colleague asked if that wouldn't be racist.

Clearly it was racist. Communication is not, nor has it ever been, a requisite for college teaching. All you need to demonstrate your communication skills is to publish, publish, publish.

I would much prefer that they learn to speak English clearly than that they take a teacher training course.

When I lived in Alameda, CA the Alameda Police had two officers with graduate degrees in Psychology on the force. Rather than arresting juveniles for petty crimes they would be taken home and counseled regularly. The new police chief got rid of them both and disbanded the program.

They didn't perform.
They didn't have enough arrests.
They should have arrested them first,
And then taken them to their parents for counseling.

250 hrs to be a commercial pilot
1500 to have an airline transport license

You don't understand the terminology. What most call an "airline pilot" is the 1500 figure, and that's a minimum flight hours, not counting class work, simulators, etc. And its a minimum most pilots easily reach.

He didn't say an airline pilot. You can fly a private airplane with the 250, crash it, and kill your passengers and the people you hit on the ground.

Cosmetologists, of course, operate in a much more dangerous airspace - your face.

agree the cosmetology requirements are bunk but even 40 hours of flight training (apparently this is the minimum) is very expensive

"The cost of flight training varies widely, but you should be able to get a private pilot license for around $10,000, depending on the location, type of airplane used, type of flight school, instructor experience, and the pace at which you are able to learn. To better understand costs and perhaps help limit them, break them down by individual variables involved in flight training."


I've been cutting my own hair during the pandemic. Is it acceptable? Yes. Sure, I don't do the job Michelle does, but neither of us has much to work with anyway. Which brings me to the {Name a City} Academy of Beauty Culture. I grew up listening to the commercials for the Academy in our closest city that were on television on Saturdays, the narrator with a soothing, and reassuring, British accent. A British accent down here in the South? The problem with the beauty industry is that very few of their customers qualify as beautiful. What's the point? I tell Michelle she should be ashamed of herself charging me full price with the amount of hair on my head. Women past the age of beauty think that it can be found in a bottle. No, it can't. But the folks in the beauty industry are professionals: they provide a few hours of suspension of disbelief for their customers. For that, they deserve whatever they are paid.

The difference between a good haircut and a bad haircut is two weeks.

Pretty much explained by who has to pay for the training. For police, mostly the government, for the cosmetologist, the person who wants that job. Also, police training, requiring sophisticated equipment to be done safely is more expensive. Firing ranges, hand-to-hand combat, etc. training requires expensive facilities.

This was a chickenshit thread, yeah, but what else could it have been?.

Interesting point but does anyone think this is a problem that can be cured with 'a little more training?' We send the police out to deal with our discarded social and mental crises so we don't have to. Is anyone surprised that the people who deal with these problems day in and day out stop viewing these people as less than human? I would probably be a lousy cop too. The policing problem won't be solved by a class or seminar. Nor will it be solved by defunding police.

When was the last time anyone was killed by their cosmetologist? See, looks like all that training is working. #SendAllCopsToCosmetologySchool. Problem solved.

Is the point that police are under-trained or cosmetologists over-trained?

Police are paid from taxes. Cosmetologists are not.

The comsetology regulations are the result of entrenched interest protecting market power. Most of these deals are cash and carry with our legislature out here.

No wonder they look so good.

seems appropriate in a world in which you can be arrested for opening a business but not for looting one

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