Sino-Italian fact of the day

In Italy 63% said the EU failed its citizens. Asked who their most useful ally had been during the darkest days of the Covid-19 crisis, only 4% cited the EU while 25% said China.

Here is the link.

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How did the U.S. stack up? I never go to twitter, fearing the hateful mobs that will cost me my job as they enforce mindless conformity on the masses,

Was the polling done before or after Trump suggested injecting disinfectant as a therapy against covid?

Do you think reading Twitter posts exposes you to anything?

Yes, it exposes me to the evil machinations of a private company, and the vengeful mobs that this company fosters.

You don't understand how anything works.

He doesn't want to get affected by the Twitter mind virus. It's perfectly rational. All these crazies on Twitter were someone's kid once.

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Wait, let us explain the obvious: if you see the hateful mob on twitter violently attacking some person you think absolutely does not deserve that (maybe, for instance, J.K. Rowling attacked on her comments on "periods") you may be very strongly tempted to write a tweet defending the victim of the virtual lynching. After that, what happens does not depend on you: your tweet may become viral in a negative way, and you can indeed lose your job.

This is one reason why "just wondering" does not read twitter.

"you may be very strongly tempted to write a tweet "

Writing is not reading. If you just read, you are safe. You don't need an account to read so don't go creating one. You guys need to internet better. "just wondering" is just ranting and less wondering.

"If you just read, you are safe. "
bingo
we aren't allowed to defend J.K. Rowling from the mob without getting
canceled. that is pretty convenient for the mob.

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No, following certain people will get you in big trouble too. Mark Duplass (hollywood guy) followed Shapiro and said he found some of his tweets worthy of consideration.

He was destroyed. A few days later he turned on a dime.

People wonder how tolitarian regimes take hold. You are watching it now.

In North Korea, there are regular community meetings where you must tell your community leader who fell short and might have disappointed Dear Leader. Even if nothing wrong was done, people are pressured to find something. The goal is to get people ratting each other out, getting them afraid to talk to each other behind the scenes and say "this is bull***". Once people are afraid to tell each other "this is crap" the mob has won.

We're very close to that point today.

so what you are saying is twitter 2020
is like north korea, maoist china c. cultural revolution,
cambodia c 1975 khmer route, ussr c. 1930s and harvard c.2020
somebody should inform comrade houseplant biden

No, I'm saying we're headed there given the velocity of the change.

In 2017, Trump asserted that soon protesters would want Washington and Jefferson statues removed. He was widely mocked for that hypothetical.

Today, that is happening all over the country. While the police watch.

Don't look at the absolutes--look at the rate of change. And then extrapolate it forward 10 years.

so we are pretty darn close to china c. 2030
somebody should inform comrade houseplant biden

Ten years ago, we were told the gender was a spectrum, and yes, sex was immutable. Today, sex is a spectrum. And questioning it will get you fired.

the chairman of the University of British Columbia was just let go for liking a Trump tweet. No kidding.

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Ben Shapiro has 2.8 million followers on Twitter. Clearly nothing is stopping people from following him.

And who, prey tell, are the biggest followers of Shapiro? Do you think a VP at a Fortune 50 follows him? Do you think professors at universities follow him? Please list them. I'm curious

We saw what happened to a college football coach for wearing a t-shirt from a right-leaning news source.

I don’t have Twitter so I can’t see Shapiro’s followers, nor am I going to go through 2.8 million people. But the fact that 2.8 million people feel free to follow Shapiro means that his views are not being censored.

Maybe being politically outspoken is an obstacle to achieving high and public positions of prestige like head of a university or Fortune 50 company. Well part of those elite jobs is to represent your institution and you don’t have the right to that kind of elite job if you’re not consistent with your institution’s values. All of these people are going to end up with top jobs and gobs of money still—they aren’t getting thrown in a gulag like in North Korea. Complaining about not getting to be CEO or university president for making controversial political statements is like complaining about losing election to Congress for making controversial political statements.

"you don’t have the right to that kind of elite job if you’re not consistent with your institution’s values."

It would be simpler to just require party membership for those important jobs rather than handling things on a case by case basis.

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The chair of the university of british columbia was let go for liking a tweet from Trump.

How woudl you feel instead of the wack job virtual signalling today, we were instead seeing religious zealots wanting to start all work meetings with a prayer? That CEOs were being ask by the press what their favorite bible verse was? And then how would you feel if a SVP at a company that liked a tweet from a person critical of religion--if the SVP was fired for merely questioning religion?

This is religion. Make no mistake.

Indeed. Yet most black people do not support BLM. Surveys show us. The fake media won’t tell anyone, though.

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do you have any idea how many death threats ben shapiro has gotten?
somebody should inform comrade houseplant biden!

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zuaist sophistry
"Ben Shapiro has 2.8 million followers on Twitter. Clearly nothing is stopping people from following him."
they just gave you an example of someone (Duplass) who got
wreckoned/reckoned for following Shapiro

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How does one 'violently attack' someone on Twitter? Have they introduced a new feature, say a button that lets you slap someone or hit them with a stick? If that is the case I will happily sign up for a paid subscription. Finally some real innovation in social media!

Why does everyone want their violence to involve instant gratification?

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a death threat would be a good example of how sumbody gets violently
attacked on twitter.
sumbody should inform comrade houseplant biden

How many death threat tweets to JK Rowling then can you identify?

you would have to ask her. cornpopsrustyrazor don't swim in those circles but we counted 8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfMUOT67c3M

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Do you want a safe space?

do you frequently watch "the view"

No.

did you know the court of appeals just ruled in favor of General Flynn
nearly 4 years after the fbi tried to fubar him
somebody should inform comrade houseplant biden

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See the full poll: https://www.ecfr.eu/page/-/europes_pandemic_politics_how_the_virus_has_changed_the_publics_worldview.pdf

The image of the US has been damaged among European publics even more than the image of China.

Europe has bee for over 50 years the neurotic girlfriend you cannot shuck off. Only shallow people give a rip what the idle opinions of European publics are.

Other than U.S. troops in Germany, repeated interventions in the Balkans, the ballistic missile early warning system run out of Greenland, "tear down that wall," and a lurid fascination with the EU in right-wing blogs and media popular with Americans, who cares about Europe?

What you call "lurid fascination" is what normal human beings call, "disdain". It doesn't matter what games policy elites are playing. The polled opinions of European publics are inconsequential and properly ignored.

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And yet Europe has gotten behind the US led New Cold War against China. Belatedly. Neurotic GF? Yes, still.

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Yeah, and the really sad thing is everyone here from the hosts down to the self-appointed hall monitors, thought this decline was off topic for a blog on the political economy.

Specifically, I'm old enough to remember when pardons for war criminals were not considered relevant.

Hell yeah, they were relevant, and they helped dynamite American standing as a moral force.

It was an amazing thing to be silent on, it was an amazing choice to be irrelevant to the response.

Bizarrely enough you seem to believe the actual topic of the blog post has nothing to do with whether the subject of your rants are on or off topic. So you either don’t grasp the concept of what “on topic” means or you don’t really care about anything except for an excuse to entertain your Manichaean delusions.

Anyways, another logic fail since the survey is measuring change in the last few weeks, not whatever your Twitter feed said from years ago.

Looking at the actual paper, I wonder what happened in the US to cause an increase in Europeans believing Americans are divided?

There are three things that obviously connect.

1. The reputation of nations
2. Globalization
3. Moral calculus

To leave aside your hand waving, to do you a favor in that way, I'll ask a simple question (or two):

Was anti-globalization ever rooted in a rational moral calculus?

Or to tie it to the today's news, is the administration's attack on tech visas rooted in any moral or economic calculus?

curious to hear how you would calculate chinas "moral calculus"

They have one. The traditional American one is better. That's why ours has traditionally sold better around the world.

Theirs is that society having superiority over the individual leads to the greatest good for the greatest number.

Ours is that a focus on individual rights actually a leads to the greatest good over time.

I could have added one more in how these concepts mesh:

4) Realpolitik

You can't have nothing but realpolitik imo, and realpolitik works better when it is grounded in democracy and human rights.

Hong Kong protesters know that.

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It was perhaps part of a general capitulation on (moral) globalism, and a sad accommodation for a (ruder) populism that would prove to be a flash in the pan.

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For anyone who hasn't clicked through to the article, the graph "The pandemic has damaged Europeans' perception of the US" is actually the bloodiest on the page.

Also the to two self rated countries are Denmark and Sweden, with radically different results. The US is right in the middle of the two. So basically, polls are BS.

Or maybe polls are accurate about how they feel, but are more of an indicator of the BS they've been fed - going in both directions.

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> Was the polling done before or after Trump suggested injecting disinfectant as a therapy against covid?

I think it was done shortly after Trump vaulted the US to cranking out more tests per capita per day than any other country of size in the world. South Korea hit a high water mark of 0.2 tests per 1K people this month. The US is 7.5X that. The US is triple Germany. The US is almost double Canada.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

I wonder why countries with tens or hundreds of cases are testing less than a country with 30,000+?

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Testing data is another fiasco. Several state health departments had apparently been mixing antibody tests with viral tests and then sending combined totals in some cases in these Excel spreadsheets CDC uses to aggregate data across the country. Things may have improved in the past month but data representing alleged tests done up through the end of May is questionable because no one knows what is actually being measured.

Antibody tests were pretty rare until 6 weeks ago. I'd guess the ratio is probably 10:1 between covid test versus antibody test even today.

if testing is not unlimited
10antigen:1 antibody tests is not unreasonable if you are trying to
figure out who is potentially infectious

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Antibody tests started coming out in March....

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Chinese tourists brought covid 19 to Italy likely with full knowledge of CCP...this survey means little since Italy is addicted to Chinese money praying it comes back

It’s worse than you know.
https://youtu.be/mNMdg4morQs

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Fake news. All Italians know Putin....errr, Russia helped Italy the most. Now China wants all the credit =) https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters/russian-army-to-send-coronavirus-help-to-italy-after-putin-phone-call/45634432

I failed at humor :/

My point is China and Russia propaganda systems are competing to show who helped more X country in the Europe after the EU "failed".

For me, it's hard to believe that the same people that became hostile to the local population of China origins and tourists in Europe because of the "Chinese virus".....answer a survey telling the most useful ally is China.

Humans are complex, but for all above to the true, there should be a nice contradiction between behavior on the streets and behavior while answering a survey. Is this the case?

The full poll shows that more Italians’ view of China worsened (37%) than improved (21%). https://www.ecfr.eu/page/-/europes_pandemic_politics_how_the_virus_has_changed_the_publics_worldview.pdf. Although China has done better than the US in this regard; 48% of Italians’ views of the US worsened while only 9% improved—China did send aid and experts to Italy, which eventually brought the pandemic under control while it continues only somewhat abated in the US.

It seems the pandemic has generally caused people’s views of China, the US, their own governments, and the EU to all decline.

Thanks for your reply. Now the numbers are coherent with the attitude change to Asians on public spaces i saw and what some colleagues from China and Vietnam have told me. I live in CH and have seen more than the usual ostracism to foreigners, this time focused on people from Asia.

The public perception of all governments has worsened, and the truth stops there. The tweet about "China most useful ally" is just the interpretation of said numbers, but there's nothing positive about it as the framing implies.

Yeah, the big takeaway from the poll seems to be that most Europeans want a stronger European Union that would be able to stand up to both the US and China. The framing of the poll as Europeans are all flocking to China is not accurate. However, the results of the poll seems to align a little too closely with the mission statement of the organization sponsoring it, so maybe the whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt.

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"They say the findings also challenge the view that the pandemic fuelled a surge in support for expanding the role of the state. Across the nine survey countries, 33% say they have lost confidence in the capacity of governments to act based on their handling of the pandemic, and only 29% think that the crisis proves the need for a bigger role for the state.

While approval ratings for national leaders soared in March, as anxious citizens sought reassurance and governments stepped in to save livelihoods, by the end of April, 61% in France said the Macron government had under-performed and felt more disillusioned about the role of governments since the arrival of Covid-19. In Spain, 54% expressed dissatisfaction with Pedro Sanchez’s government’s management of the crisis. By contrast, in Germany, 58% of those polled remained positive about Angela Merkel’s leadership

However, widespread disappointment with the EU response has not so far translated into a boost for Eurosceptic populism. A convincing majority, 63%, including 55% in Germany, 80% in Spain and 91% in Portugal, believed the pandemic showed the need for EU governments to act more cohesively."

This is an EU-Italian fact of the day - "In Italy, 76% wanted a recovery led by the EU and only 16% said the pandemic had shown Matteo Salvini’s anti-EU populist Lega party in an improved light." www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/23/europeans-believe-in-more-cohesion-despite-eus-covid-19-failings

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Italians like Chinese food and vice versa.

No, Italians like Japanese food. That's why you don't find Chinese restaurants in Italy, just "Japanese" ones run by Chinese. The Italians are pretty racist towards the Chinese too. I know a number of people who refuse to go to Chinese businesses, usually using something like hygiene as an excuse.

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As historians know, the relationship between Italy and China dates back to Imperial China and Ancient Rome, but the economic tie today dates to Italy's recent economic troubles and the opportunities presented to Chinese companies to buy Italian brands cheap. One man's problem is another man's opportunity. That's the miracle of markets. Of course, the economic devastation resulting from WWII presented an economic opportunity for the U.S., which was spared the physical destruction suffered by Europe and the Far East, an opportunity that both helped rebuild Europe and the Far East and turned the U.S. into an economic juggernaut. Many in Europe and the Far East resented the U.S. for the blatant exploitation of Europe's and the Far East's woes following WWII, just as many resent China's exploitation of Italy's woes following the Great Recession. But it's how markets are supposed to work. Consider the alternative to economic dominance: military dominance, by the U.S. following WWII or by China following the Great Recession. Choose your poison.

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This fact is part of a survey that showed Europeans wanted greater cross-national cooperation and cohesion, and more EU coordination.

Indeed: "In Italy, 76% wanted a recovery led by the EU and only 16% said the pandemic had shown Matteo Salvini’s anti-EU populist Lega party in an improved light. Nor has the crisis boosted support for Spain’s populists – 54% said the far right Vox party had gone down in their estimation since the arrival of the coronavirus. Marine Le Pen’s party in France flat-lined while in Germany just 6% reported an “improved” view of the far-right AfD as a result of the crisis."

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Sino-American fact of the day. Here's a story about Chinese students (derisively called "little pinks" in China) who studied and are "trapped" in America and can't get back to China due to the pandemic: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/business/china-nationalist-students-coronavirus.html What the story misses are the Americans who reside in China and can't leave because they won't be allowed to return to China. What? Yes, there are such people, including my cousin. He moved to China decades ago, eventually marrying and having children with a Chinese woman. He has been visiting his family in America annually in the summer, but this year he can't: he can fly to America to visit but won't be allowed to return to China due to the pandemic.

In many places, not just China, travel bans include people who hold work visas or spousal visas. Thailand has gone further and pulled the plug on international passenger flights entirely. It will be difficult for Americans living abroad to visit home and the best case scenario might involve a 14-day quarantine upon return, which is what Cambodia and South Korea are doing.

The US travel bans include people on work visas and fiancé visas too. But the US isn’t testing or quarantining people who come in without being covered by the travel ban such as returning citizens. The result was a ban that was both harsh and ineffective.

老师, you nailed it

The result was [insert policy] that was both harsh and ineffective.

US government in a nutshell

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If continental institutions consisted of what they should consist - a customs union, a military alliance, and a joint coastal and border patrol that actual repels invaders - people would not expect public health maintenance from Brussels. Assistance with emergency supplies can be had through bilateral efforts or specialized agencies.

It's gracious of Italians to thank China for all the defective equipment they sent.

Maybe the American regime should have helped, but it could not even help its own citizens. Let us be blunt: the American regime is rotten to its core. The American dream has gone sour.

but it could not even help its own citizens.

The death toll per inhabitant here is lower than it has been in western Europe. And you're a godawful bore.

Excluding the UK, the US death toll per inhabitant is now higher than in the EU and the gap is growing. The EU is also skewed by Italy and Spain, who were the first regions affected. The US had considerable notice. There is no good reason why the US numbers shouldn’t look more like Germany (less than 30% of the US number of deaths per million) than like the EU as a whole.

But does any large country’s death toll from Covid-19 look like Germany’s? I’m still waiting.....

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A failure of state capacity all around,. It would also be interesting to know how forthcoming the Italian media has been about the Chinese government's early concealment of the virus and quietly heavy purchasing of PPE. Over here, of course, the media downplays these facts since criticism of China benefits Trump, but I don't know what the political calculus is for such things in Italy.

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Hi. I am John Wilkins Jr. I rhink one of my clmments has been deleted. Maybe there is some virus on the maimframe or something like that.

Hiya, Thiago. How's Brazil this fine morning? Still got lots of coffee?

I am Mr. Wilkins, a clerk from Maine, New England.

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I am not "Thiago", I am John Wilkins Jr., an actuary from Hartford, Connecticut. However, I am hearing some very fine improvement in Brazil thanks to the courageous leadership of President Captain Bolsonaro.

You are not the real John Wilkins Jr.

Really, who is the real John Wilkins Jr.?

Not me.

Sou eu o John Wilkins de verdade! Não existe um outro!

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Italy is a failed state. They were even before corona.

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On an emotional level, it’s hard to compare the EU with a country. The EU is an abstraction that creates rules. Nobody says “I love the EU” the way they say “I love [a country/food from that country/the people]. If you ask people who does more for them, the EU or a country, it’s not unexpected that the country will come out ahead.

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The EU is an old fraud that Italians have seen through. Sino-Italian friendship is a new fraud not yet seen through.

Or has Brexit caused you to lose all connection to EU reality?

"In Italy, 76% wanted a recovery led by the EU and only 16% said the pandemic had shown Matteo Salvini’s anti-EU populist Lega party in an improved light." www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/23/europeans-believe-in-more-cohesion-despite-eus-covid-19-failings

From your comment I could never have guessed that the Guardian's headline and subheading included:

Coronavirus: Europeans say EU was ‘irrelevant’ during pandemic
EU-wide survey reveals deep disillusionment at response ...

The article did eventually reveal who had paid for the survey: the European Council on Foreign Relations. Presumably they got what they paid for.

So, after your reading, have the Italians seen through the fraud of the institution that 3/4 want leading their economic recovery?

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Tyler, on the other hand

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/06/23/world/asia/23reuters-australia-china.html

I have filled my NYT quota for this month.

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So, how many are leaving the EU and joining the PRC?

Polling nonsense.

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So now we know of a new syndrome associated with the coronavirus.

I propose naming it IDIOTID-20. Started in Italy.

So far, it does not seem to impact residents of other countries.

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Wonderful propaganda work from China, but abhorrent outcome.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-italy-coronavirus-supplies-buy-back

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And it's not like they are wrong. EU action requires large consensus, and the comments from German and Dutch on international cooperation made it pretty clear that they are not going to be there for southern states. Italy, Greece and Spain aren't really Europe in their eyes.

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That makes sense, Italy wants giant bailouts from the EU so it can cut taxes, while spending on big deficits, and allowing citizens to build up private wealth, while pleading public penury to Brussels. It doesn't get that, so the EU underperforms on expectations.

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