Policemen in schools: what do they accomplish?

A 2009 study by Matthew Theriot of the University of Tennessee compared student arrest and court records from one group of schools that had a school resource officer stationed on school grounds with those of schools that didn’t. Controlling for socioeconomic status, the researcher found that there wasn’t much difference in serious crime between the schools that had SROs and the schools that didn’t. Students at policed schools were much more likely to get arrested than students at unpoliced schools, but they weren’t any more likely to actually be charged in court for weapons, drugs, alcohol, or assault. (In other words, students at policed schools were much more likely to get arrested in cases where there wasn’t enough evidence to actually charge them with a crime.)

Students at policed schools were almost five times as likely to face criminal charges for “disorderly conduct” (which apparently didn’t rise to the level of an assault). In other words, when there was a police officer roaming the halls, students were much more likely to be arrested and brought into court for behavior that was disruptive, but not violent.

That is from Dara Lind, here is more from Eric Levitz.  Via David A. Graham.


Need to do a double blind study of this with p = 0.01 before we can believe any of it.

Double blind? Meaning that the police wouldn't know where they were? And the kids wouldn't know they were there? :-)

P value cutoffs are arbitrary and meaningless. For tons of important research questions it's impossible or impractical to take an RCT approach to answer to them. It doesn't mean you ignore other types of evidence. I thought someone so rich would understand that.

I'm just surprised the answer wasn't patents.

In all serious, though, in many cases the inability to do a randomized trial means it is almost impossible to collect meaningful evidence on a subject. I think this is one of those cases, since the decision to assign a resource officer to certain schools is very likely to be associated with unmeasured student behavior related factors that will influence the results.

This particular study had a tiny sample size (less than 30 schools total), and I think they are reasoning too much from the lack of significant differences, given that.

The assumption seems to be that the children in schools with armed guards are being unfairly hassled and charged. Wouldn't be possible and perhaps even probable that the opposite is true and that children n schools without security officers are getting away with bad behavior and even crimes?

The article already answers that:

Students at policed schools were much more likely to get arrested than students at unpoliced schools, but they weren’t any more likely to actually be charged in court for weapons, drugs, alcohol, or assault. (In other words, students at policed schools were much more likely to get arrested in cases where there wasn’t enough evidence to actually charge them with a crime.)

Yeah! That's the claim. But not having the DA charge them is not the same as being innocent. In fact the underlying point of this is the willingness of officials to allow children to not be charged with crimes they committed for the single purpose of making their crime stats look good. This is a disservice to the public and to the little delinquents. This seems to be exactly the case in the recent shooting in Florida, If law enforcement had enforced the laws this terrible event would not have happened.

That could be argued, but then the security officers don't help either because the kids STILL get away with it. If it is true what you think, you need to reform the justice department instead.

> But not having the DA charge them is not the same as being innocent.

Don't we have an "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine in the USA?

Innocent until proven guilty is an "expression" not fact. Even in the law you are not found "innocent" you are found "not guilty". But more to the point IF you commit a crime and don't get caught or get caught and do not get prosecuted that does NOT mean you are "innocent" it merely means you have not been found "guilty" or "not guilty" in a court of law. When I drive 5 miles over the speed limit I am guilty of speeding but uncharged (so far).

Briefly, whether, or not, the school has an armed SRO, the guilty are not punished. Ergo the innocent suffer.

Are you really taking the side that rambunctious kids are criminals?

In my lifetime the most dangerous place I ever have been has been school. I was assaulted a few times, and I think I got by pretty well. Since then never.

I don't blame kids, I blame the school itself. I was forced by law to be in the same room as a mob.

Doesn't surprise me that have an police officer didn't make much difference. They aren't very good at mob control either.

'In my lifetime the most dangerous place I ever have been has been school.'

Well, you missed the fun that one had in significant parts of DC during the crack epidemic in the later 80s. The pops you might hear at any time were not fireworks, and the holes in doors in neighborhoods in places like Mt. Pleasant were from stray rounds.

My parents worked inner city schools, which had armed security even 30 years ago. My impression was that violence *at* school was rare. As it was in our half Hispanic suburb. So I can't really speak to that experience.

I would have thought it was after school, and in the neighborhood, that was dangerous.

I do know that a rule change, allowing problem students to be expelled sooner helped.

Aren't you Canadian? That drastically decreases your risk of getting shot, whether at school or somewhere else. We Americans look down the barrel of a gun every time we walk out the door, oftentimes at home too.

I hope you're open carrying. It's really the only way to escape getting shot here.

Good God. Anything that frames a murderer as a rambunctious kid is not just sad, it is a deplorable attempt to drive discussion down into the mud.

I am going to have a deep conversation with Buddy, my dog. He's more intelligent.

So, the 2018 elections will be about hating the NRA and me; confiscating guns; the #MeToo movement; hating me. Good luck with that.

Read my comment. There were about a 40 instances wherein Cruz should have been stopped.

They politicize everything. It's Rule One in the play book.

The left did that "mud" thing approximately 15 seconds after it was reported. Waiving the bloody shirts, it gave the gallows fowls (bonus points if you know where I got that) something about which to squawk. It's one reason they love mass shootings.

Maybe Bloomberg, The NYT, Keith Ellison, Comey, Mueller, et al can allege Martian collusion after the GOP wins more Congressional seats in the 2018 elections.

You named your dog Buddy, ha.

Poor Dick, he feels he was the real victim at Parkland.

If you get hit as an adult, it is assault and battery and you can ruin someone's life over it. Worst case you can walk away. If you get hit as a child, it is Tuesday. The rambunctious kids just horsing about. If it gets really bad and an adult (a person with actual rights) is interested in helping you, maybe you can get the police involved, though it is more for spooking the other party than for doing justice.

I think this is largely how it should be, preteens don't have developed morals and behave like psychopaths, but that usually fixes itself with age and involving the "corrective" apparatus of the justice system would only do damage. But school has more parallels with prison than you'd think!

Teenagers can horse around, but they can also engage in very serious crimes, including assault that endangers others.

It's not clear just from statistics about arrests in schools what is going on.

Prisons always have armed guards. "SRO" is an outrageously deceptive term.

---- "The entire American school system needs to be stringently reexamined from primary grades through college. If high school has turned into a seething arena of boredom and competitive tension erupting in mayhem, it's partly (as I told Interview Magazine after the Columbine massacre) because modern schools have become dungeons for active young men at their most hormonally driven period of life. Forcing restless teens of both sexes to sit like robots in regimented rows in crowded classrooms for the better part of each day is a pointless, sadistic exercise except for those with their sights on office jobs. This school system is not even 200 years old, yet most people treat it as if the burning bush floated it down from Mount Sinai. Too often, school has become a form of mental and physical oppression. (Camille Paglia)


--- "The main function of the public school is not education but social control. Using schools as institutions for social control makes them de facto criminal-psychiatric facilities, depriving children of liberty. Schools are prisons, to which children are sentenced by compulsory education and truancy laws." (Dr. Thomas Szasz)

Two people with an uncommon grasp of reality.

... a brilliant rebuttal. Might you have any actual counter arguments from your close grasp of reality?

It's not a rebuttal or a counter argument. It happens to be true.

You have an uncommon fetish for getting your woman impregnated by strangers. It happens to be true.

The problem today is the diversity of the student body. When the student body was homogeneous, the political coercion of compulsory, public schools simply promoted the ruling culture. But now, not only are the non-dominant given a voice, there are more cultures. Thus a centralized compulsory education system only breeds conflict. And it doesn't matter that the education is "local" when one ideology dominates the local "educators".

"If one leaves to the parents the choice of the school to which they wish to send their children, then one exposes them to every conceivable form of political coercion. In all areas of mixed nationality, the school is a political prize of the highest importance. It cannot be deprived of its political character as long as it remains a public and compulsory institution. There is, in fact, only one solution: the state, the government, the laws must not in any way concern themselves with schooling or education. Public funds must not be used for such purposes. The rearing and instruction of youth must be left entirely to parents and to private associations and institutions. "

Mises, Ludwig von (1927). Liberalism

Having armed security at schools is a necessary evil at this point, and head and shoulders above having Mrs. Hudson conceal a pistol somewhere on her body as she teaches 4th graders.

How do you know?

They had armed security. Four of them in Parkland, FL did nothing. Will SROs lay down their lives for your kids?

Among many things, the Parkland tragedy reveals the rot in myth that big government is your savior.

'reveals the rot in myth that big government is your savior'

So, it was a bunch of concealed carry concerned citizens that ended the shooting, and not the police?

Gun free zone. As I said above I need to consult with Buddy, my dog. He's a Hell of a lot smarter.

FYI, He stopped shooting and walked away. They caught him almost an hour later - no resistance.

We've had judges and tribal leaders who judge disputes for +10k years. We've had lawyers to argue cases before judges for +2k years. We've had police for 100 years. Maybe they're not as essential as they'd like to think they are.

'We’ve had police for 100 years.'

Sheriff - 'late Old English scirgerefa "representative of royal authority in a shire," from scir (see shire) + gerefa "chief, official, reeve" (see reeve). As an American county official, attested from 1660s; sheriff's sale first recorded 1798.' https://www.etymonline.com/word/sheriff

Bit longer than 100 years.

clockwork_prior February 25, 2018 at 4:15 pm

Sheriff – ‘late Old English scirgerefa “representative of royal authority in a shire,” from scir (see shire) + gerefa “chief, official, reeve” (see reeve).

Apparently that racist. At least it is when Republicans do it.

'Gun free zone.'

Not the neighborhood the high school was situated in, though. Oddly, the armed people that showed up in response to the fusillade of shots were police, not concerned concealed carry citizens. .

'FYI, He stopped shooting and walked away.'

Sort of, escaping the armed police response by mingling with the fleeing students - 'As law enforcement rushed to respond, Cruz was able to escape the school undetected. He stopped at a WalMart, bought a drink at a Subway restaurant and stopped at a McDonald's as authorities searched for him, Israel said.

Cruz's description was broadcast over police radio, and he was arrested about an hour later in a residential neighborhood by a Coconut Creek police officer who recognized him from that description.' https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-blended-in-with-fleeing-students/

Not a single concealed carry concerned citizen involved, just big government employees.

Wow. The JROTC kids and the coach who laid down their lives are already being edited out of the story.

I am not sure how to put this, but their sacrifice did not involve stopping the mass murderer by using a weapon, but in protecting others.

Of course, arguably all of them were also part of big government, offering protection to others at the cost of their own lives.

Seems like 500 words to point out that CCW holders don't carry in a gun free zone - that they are law abiding citizens. Thank you for your , albeit long winded, support.

'CCW holders don’t carry in a gun free zone'

The neighborhood around the high school is a gun free zone?

This is becoming bizarre - I am not talking about the people inside the school, I am talking about the people outside of the school who responded. All of them apparently armed employees of big government, and not a single concealed carry concerned citizen, much less someone without a concealed carry permit but weapons in their home.

Why would anyone be armed inside a school? Yes, I am really dating myself here, harking back to the age before mass shootings in schools became a fairly routine part of what happens in the U.S. - December in Arizona, January in Kentucky, February in Florida.

clockwork_prior February 25, 2018 at 4:08 pm

Why would anyone be armed inside a school? Yes, I am really dating myself here, harking back to the age before mass shootings in schools became a fairly routine part of what happens in the U.S. – December in Arizona, January in Kentucky, February in Florida.

Back before mass shootings, everyone was armed inside a school. Or at least anyone could - and many people did - bring their guns to school. Children and teachers both. In fact back in the day, anyone could send their $100 to a mail order company and get a fully automatic Thompson submachine gun in the mail. Which they could take to school.

Then the Sixties happened.

We have been cleaning up the mess ever since. Recently rape rates have dropped to where they were before the Sixties. Some part being porn, perhaps, some part being DNA testing. But technological solutions for rape are easy. Technological solutions for gun crime less so.

The bottom line is that this shooter was entirely the product of the world the Democrats created. They undermined the family and the faith communities families used to live in. They undermined the schools and school discipline - Broward County apparently gaming the figures in line with the Obama administration's demand that minorities like Cruz were not punished. They ended the mental health system allowing people like Cruz out. They provided the social workers and the police who failed here. So naturally the Left has all agreed it is the fault of the NRA.

In fact back in the day, anyone could send their $100 to a mail order company and get a fully automatic Thompson submachine gun in the mail. Which they could take to school.

Private ownership of machine guns was banned by federal statute in 1934. Given that nominal personal income per capita was about $427 per year in 1934, you didn't have many youths sending $100 in money orders to mail order firms. A contextually similar sum today would be $11,700.

The neighborhood around the high school is a gun free zone?

Yes, for 1,000 feet in any direction from the school, ever since the Gun Free Zone Act of 1990. So no, it's not legal to happen to be driving past the school with a firearm and intervene. In addition, the fact that there was a school shooting going on doesn't repeal the law, so it's possible the Cowardly Broward deputies would have arrested anyone else who did come and try to help with their own firearm.

Art Deco February 25, 2018 at 9:05 pm

Private ownership of machine guns was banned by federal statute in 1934.

Come on Art. That is not like you. The 1934 Act did not ban private ownership of machine guns. Machine guns are *still* not banned. They are just registered, taxed and heavily regulated.

The National Firearms Act (NFA), 73rd Congress, Sess. 2, ch. 757, 48 Stat. 1236, enacted on June 26, 1934, currently codified as amended as I.R.C. ch. 53, is an Act of Congress in the United States that, in general, imposes a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of certain firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms.

Did the police end the shooting? Didn't he just stop and escape undetected? Granted, he may have stopped in anticipation of the police arriving, but he also may have just run out of bullets.

I read an interesting rant by an art teacher. She said she had kids at home to return to, and she was pissed as hell that people like you expect teachers to "lay down their lives for your kids"

She said she probably would, for low pay and with no support, but she was righteously inflamed.

The Parkland tragedy shows that the problem has to be attacked upstream. Stop claiming that your fun or fantasy with an AR is more important.

"she was pissed as hell that people like you expect teachers to “lay down their lives for your kids”"

He was referring to the security, not the teachers.

He was answering "armed teachers," our President's preferred solution.

So, not only stand in front, art teacher, be prepared to kill or die.

Exactly why everyone goes into teaching.

They aren't being required to be armed, just allowed to be. What's with the left's aversioned to choice? What is not proscribed, is mandated.

There was an Ohio county sheriff that offered 50 free CCW training courses to teachers. 250 signed up immediately.

Explain the logistics TWC. How does a teacher conceal a weapon in teacher's clothes? How does she prevent a class clown or worse making a grab? How does she divide attention between teaching and threat assessment?

A lock box in the teachers desk or principal s office would work nicely.

First of all, the President and the NRA are stll on "concealed carry" today, not lock boxes.

Second, while an improvement that doesn't really talk about protocols for when the box is opened, when teachers should shoot students, how arriving police will know not to shoot the teacher.

It also adds that a locked box is now hugely attractive to thieves.

Who provides armed teachers with wrongful death umbrella coverage?

what a piece of shit that woman is. It's not about money or being paid at all. If you can stop kids from being murdered, you stop kids from being murdered. You're a complete monster if you consider "am I getting paid enough for this?"

The problem is that instead of restricting weapons, which would actually work, they're saying teachers should turn into action heroes, which is a useless idea meant to distract from the one practical solution of gun control.

I too would take great offense if someone told me I should sacrifice my life because they didn't want to have an honest conversation about the cost of gun ownership.

You know, I didn't connect the two until later.

My mom was a school secretary. In the 70s and 80s we didn't worry about her coming home alive each night.

And yet here you are, offering as your play "solution" to school shootings the demand that people like my mom be human shields.

Do better. Apply strict licenses to the fetish guns that drive this.

Hey guys I found the dude who donated most of his possessions to help African refugees avoid violence.

Why? What about her right to go home to her family at the end of her shift?

It's good enough for the highly trained and paid law enforcement business, good enough for the K-12 teacher.

No, I'm saying your mother is a bad person if she wouldn't try to protect people. And I'm saying you're a bad person because you apparently wouldn't

So instead three unarmed JROTC teenagers and a coach laid down their lives.

I totally understand not wanting to put oneself at mortal risk, and I have no illusions that I would be a hero in such a situation, but that attitude necessarily incorporates an assumption, or at least a fervent hope, that someone else will do so.

Did anyone lay down their life effectively Tom?

I understand that these were heroes, but look again at what not just you, but we as a society, are asking them to do. Hold the door open for a few more to escape, and then die. Hold the door closed, and take 5 shots from a high powered rifle.

You aren't offering a solution unless is is a solution. Not just more AR15 fodder.

It is not my position to ban all firearms, for a couple reasons. One pragmatic, that restricting firearms by type is as much as we can hope for. One hopeful, that much of this mass shooting contagion is bound up with easily available "tactical" guns and culture.

One thing I am hearing from kids gives me hope. Rather than first person shooters encouraging good normal kids to own ARs, it makes it very clear to them that they don't want one barging in on math class.

By the way, what is the highest death toll when a "mass" shooter was limited to a fixed magazine? Like your pump shotgun?

If it is much lower that is good on that level, and a disincentive on the whole fantasy.

The shooter in Dunblane Scotland killed 16 with pistols, the shooter in Norway killed 67 with pistols and a rifle.

OMG, in Scotland one weapon was a Browning Hi-Power, with a 13 or 15 round removable magazine. In Norway it was Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle semi-automatic carbine and a Glock 34 semi-automatic pistol both with removable magazines.

I am thinking fixed magazines (revolvers, lever action, pump action, bolt action) sized more like 6 rounds would, as I say, slow the whole thing down and make it less attractive.

No it exposes that more people with guns somewhere makes a place saver, a canard that more Americans are seeing for what it is.

Check recent polls and massive backlash to the NRA and its insane positions like opposing more and better background checks.

Would more and better background checks include psychiatric exams that predict violent behavior? The school shooters rarely do their deed more than once, they seldom have school shootings in their background.

Nobody is counting on Mrs. Hudson to keep our kids safe from lunatics. Having some teachers armed, those with the right training and temperament, could be very helpful.

How does an armed teacher help kids with an art assignment while insuring that no kid gets behind her, and in her blind spot?

Because obviously any kid wanting to shoot up the room has a new gun available, no purchase necessary.

Bear, in response to you upthread,

You have a point about the dysfunctional culture aspect. I don’t know enough to comment. Ive never owned a firearm and do not plan on purchasing one.

I am, however, intimately familiar with the military version of the AR-15. I carried the carbine version. It’s a great weapon system due to its low weight, low weight of ammo, ability to mount ACOG/CCO, PEQ15, surefire IR flashlight and accuracy out to 350m+. It has some penetration issues due to the small size of the round but I found these to be overstated in theater, especially by the late 2000s when they made some modifications to the actual rounds (heavier).

Not one of these things is relevant to mass murder in a classroom. It may be the psycho’s weapon of choice, but a sawed off shotgun will be more deadly.

My preferred solution would be to require several adults to sign their name to any purchase of a firearm. If you cannot get 7 adults to vouch for you and accept civil liability, you probably should not own a gun. I think this is in line with a “well regulated militia.” And it supports the right of self defense AND a self regulating civil society.

If there are some armed teachers, they can potentially intervene before the police arrive. It may not prevent the attack, but it could limit the number of fatalities.

I wouldn't want most teachers carrying weapons because of the danger of accidents.

Morris, that might lead to this kind of confusion.

"ICYMI: Amarillo churchgoer who helped wrestle gun away from potential shooter was shot by police because he was holding the gun"


The armed security at Parkland declined to intervene. Dangerous as it may have been, that was their job. If they're unwilling to accept that risk they belong in another line of work, perhaps greeting at Walmart.

I agree with the sentiment, but this severe, you're probably going to die at the hands of a heavily armed maniac situation if you engage is not something we can test in advance. If you'd asked him before this, do you think that cop would have believed he'd sit on his butt while a bunch of kids get massacred?

Probably. Because it does seem to follow a pattern. Recently most such incidents have involved the police sitting around until the gun man runs out of bullets or gets bored. It seems to be police protocol to secure the perimeter and wait.

The fact that the police from the next county did not suggests it is a matter of standing orders.

If it does turn out that is official protocol, which I believe the Broward County Sheriff denied in an interview with Tapper this weekend, then all departments need to change that policy and be very clear with the cops: their job is literally to die if needed to save others' lives. Also, the Broward sheriff should resign.

It was exactly what they did in the Florida night club shooting. Among others. No one got fired then either.

It really does seem to be what the government tells policemen to do.

"Students at policed schools were much more likely to get arrested than students at unpoliced schools, but they weren’t any more likely to actually be charged in court for weapons, drugs, alcohol, or assault. (In other words, students at policed schools were much more likely to get arrested in cases where there wasn’t enough evidence to actually charge them with a crime.)"

I wonder what happened to the weapons, drugs, and alcohol possessed by the kids who were arrested. Did it just vanish into thin air? Or perhaps insufficient evidence isn't why these kids aren't being charged, it's something else, something that doesn't fit the narrative....

Does this imply that the presence of police generally increases the likelihood of false arrests? Watch some “first amendment audits” and you’ll be shocked at the apparent proportion of police who misunderstand or lie about Terry v. Ohio and obstruction.

I was implying that it's prosecutors deciding not to charge the kids even when they were caught red-handed, and that Vox is ignoring it because it doesn't support their "school-to-prison pipeline" narrative. I n some cases it could be because prosecutors think the police acquired evidence inappropriately but I don't think it's the big factor.

'not to charge the kids'

You know, the real clue might be in that word 'kids' - who wants to get a reputation for prosecuting 13 year olds?

Low level offenders are pushed into diversion programs which often results in no charges being filed.

Leftism 101:

Step 1: Demand that more laws be passed, constantly. Take advantage of any recent events as proof that these laws are necessary -- immediately.

Step 2: Complain constantly about laws being enforced. Whine that law enforcement often leads to arrests and even, occasionally, imprisonment. Rage at the fact that lawbreakers are insufficiently white.

Liberals don't oppose laws being enforced. They oppose blatantly terrible policies that ruin lives, like treating the form of cocaine that mainly black people use like murder. They support policies that could prevent children from being mass murdered at school or church.

Well, immigration laws certainly

like treating the form of cocaine that mainly black people use like murder.

Crack was pretty much unknown prior to 1985 and is highly addictive. The penalties for possession and sale of crack were enhanced consequent to the lobbying of black politicians.

I won't agree with you that black politicians were the only ones that pushed mandatory sentences for crack. The support was broad, included most white politicians and certainly not all black leaders. But few if any liberals --any race--supported the heavily racially skewed policy by the 2000s.

>Liberals don’t oppose laws being enforced. They oppose blatantly terrible policies that ruin lives

The second thing is the opposite of the first thing.

Nah. You can enforce a bad policy that you oppose and then change it, which is exactly what happened with crack.

So you want immigration law to change through the normal legal channels and support enforcement of current law (mass deportation) in the meantime?

They certainly oppose most gun laws being enforced. Straw buyers for instance are rarely punished in places like Chicago. Because, of course, most of them are Black. What is the point of locking some criminal's grandmother or girlfriend away because she bought a gun in order to save some thuglet's life?

That's not true

Yeah it is. Actually.

David A. Graham, The Atlantic's drive-by expert? the same Atlantic scribe who spins fictional narratives in order to offer them to his salivating public for the social and political truths they reveal?

THAT David A. Graham?

How else might our corrupt and corrupting Media Establishment and our corrupted Post-Secondary Establishment be tempted to address issues of public safety that media and cognitive elites heretofore have failed to address directly?

The Atlantic changed a few years ago. This saddened me.

Then I read 25-30 of David Graham’s tweets. If he’s representative of the “new” Atlantic, then I want no part of it.

Without having read the study, someone please guide me on how to think about my initial thought: schools that are low SES are more likely to have and need SRO and this confounds the SES normalization.

The only way to even begin to get a good study would be to take a group of 60 schools without security guards. Then randomly create two groups that are the equal in the important metrics. Assign guards to 30 of the schools. Studiously collect data for some extended period. Probably a minimum of 5 years, to fully cycle a group of students.

All this "disruption" that some economists seem to worship is turning people of all ages into mental cases. Disruption, you say you want disruption, you got more disruption than people can handle. Conservatives value order and stability for a very good reason. Sure, disruption enriches a few but at a very high cost to order and stability. The next time someone praises disruption, ask her if she intends to pay the cost of the resulting chaos.

yes, I'm sure it was economic factors that caused a high school student to murder his fellow students

Actually, all of the discussion that will follow about veracity, accuracy, results and studies is irrelevant. Teachers are responsible for education (which they can't seem to do very well in the US), and law enforcement are an ex post facto entity (so they should not be involved until after a crime occurs), The primary people responsible for the safety of children are the child's parents. The incursions, over the last few decades, upon that responsibility by various entities has created this situation. Numerous regulations have convinced child warfare agencies, photo processing shops, doctors, teachers, and everyday citizens that it is their right to insinuate themselves into another family's personal lives. Diffusion of responsibility means reduced responsibility by each person.

See the policies of the school district police force in Dade County, Florida. They're under institutional pressure to avoid turning students over to the criminal justice system and there are conduits to social work programs they're expected to use. The same applied re the Broward County sheriff's department. (See Theodore Dalrymple's remarks on the enormous number of public CCTV cameras in Britain. It has no effect on crime because the courts refuse to punish offenders caught on tape).

A large fraction of what Glenn Reynolds calls 'the administrative class' has screwball moral sentiments whose practical effect is to be kind to the cruel and cruel to the kind. Government will continue to do perverse things until these roaches are stripped of their position and replaced with people who are sensible.

Regarding your observation, see:


Yup. Lind is ignoring the pressure from the prior administration to reduce racial disparity in punishment, regardless of the effect on discipline.

If we are talking about eliminating tail risk (school shootings) there is a cost in dollars, regulation and freedom associated with that. The fact that there is a net cost in the middle of the distribution doesn't mean it wouldn't be effective in the tails. Whether the tradeoff is worth it and whether the policies would actually be effective are difficult questions. It's possible that even symbolic action is net positive if society feels it has lost control.

Well, yeah. But posturing nincompoops gotta feed their oats, so acknowledging trade-offs will not be done.

If it were up to me, there would be policemen at every public shool in America. No exceptions. It is ridiculous that, as we spend more than we earn and have a pantagruelic trade deficit with Red China and Trump plays golf, we choose to spare a few cents at protecting America's future.

good idea. Replace the expensive twice-daily explosion of yellow school buses in every American city with violence deterrence.

Violence deterrence is very important. While our leaders sleep, our children fight a Vietnam War at our schools.

If it were up to me, parents would be able to choose the school they send their children to or home school. Many public schools are PC factories.

I think I will wait a country with indoor plumbing adopt that idea.

I think I will wait a country with indoor plumbing adopt that idea.

Good to have you on-board with the idea, then.

In Finland, the government provides funding for basic education at all levels, and instruction is free of charge.3\ In Sweden, schooling is “free,” and parents are able to choose their children’s schools; funding even follows the student when they change schools. In Portugal, the Ministry of Education finances the public sector in its entirety, and the state subsidizes each student in private schools. In Germany, the Netherlands, England, Northern Ireland, and Sweden, “public funding is provided so that families can choose to send their children to schools with a religious character.”

In several European countries, such as Belgium, the Netherlands, and Ireland, school choice is a constitutional right. Article 24 of the Belgian constitution, for example, provides “all pupils of school age have the right to moral or religious education at the Community’s expense.” Belgium enacted universal school choice in 1958 in what it termed the “School Pact”; school choice was seen as a way of avoiding strife between Catholic and Protestant schools.

From https://www.edchoice.org/school_choice_faqs/how-does-school-choice-work-in-other-countries/ .

"Ersatzschulen are ordinary primary or secondary schools which are run by private individuals, private organizations or religious groups. These schools offer the same types of diplomas as in public schools. However, Ersatzschulen, like their state-run counterparts, are subjected to basic government standards, such as the minimum required qualifications of teachers and pay grades. An Ersatzschule must have at least the same academic standards as those of a state school and Article 7, Paragraph 4 of the Grundgesetz, allows to forbid the segregation of pupils according to socioeconomic status (the so-called Sonderungsverbot). Therefore, most Ersatzschulen have very low tuition fees compared to those in most other Western European countries; scholarships are also often available. However, it is not possible to finance these schools with such low tuition fees: accordingly all German Ersatzschulen are subsidised with public funds.

Some students attend private schools through welfare subsidies. This is often the case if a student is considered to be a child at risk: students who have learning disabilities, special needs or come from dysfunctional home environments.

After allowing for the socio-economic status of the parents, children attending private schools are not as able as those at state schools. At the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) for example, after considering socioeconomic class, students at private schools underperformed those at state schools.[17] One has, however, to be careful interpreting that data: it may be that such students do not underperform because they attend a private school, but that they attend a private school because they underperform. Some private Realschulen and Gymnasien have lower entry requirements than public Realschulen and Gymnasien."

"Belgium enacted universal school choice in 1958 in what it termed the “School Pact”; school choice was seen as a way of avoiding strife between Catholic and Protestant schools."

Oh, I thought it was about educating children...

Like the one who ran away in this shooting?

"With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building. New Broward County sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building."

I think it is clear police authorities did what was possible at a very difficult context. But I favor increasing investment and police readiness ro deal with shooters and deliquence.

What? We know the cop at the school did nothing and avoided the shooter. We know that the first cops to get to the school after the shooting started did nothing and avoided the shooter. No one went in until after he was done and left.

As Gunman Rampaged Through Florida School, Armed Deputy ‘Never Went In

The most vulnerable children in public schools are kindergarteners at Montessori and public schools.

We should encase the perimeter of these schools with barbed wire and electrical fences, and arm the teachers with handguns.

Since children could be shot at outside of the defense perimeter at recess, we should not let the kids go outside.

Instead of school buses the kids should be picked up with armored vehicles with heavily armed police guards.

Most districts are doing this, it is a great way to win a bond election for their armored bus budget.

A more recent (and with a better identification strategy) study exploring this topic here:

Those estimates are extremely imprecise, don't you think? Maybe the SEs should be reported with the point estimates?


Famous Brazilian Representative (and presidential candidate) Bolsonaro was granted a hero's welcome in Japan. Could you people please share that information with your friends, if you have any, and acquaintances? Write your Representatives and Senators?
Representative Bolsonaro is the most pro-American candidate, he favors protecting foreign investments, he favors close military cooperation with America and he wants to stand up to Red China's imperialism. Representative Bolsonaro believes, as famous American president John Kennedy did, that "this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house".
Remember what Mr. Kissinger said: as Brazil goes, so goes South America.

When police officers would rather eat doughnuts than enter a school to confront a shooter, it's hard to see the point of the expense. "Students were much more likely to be arrested and brought into court for behavior that was disruptive, but not violent." A disruptive student is slightly more annoying than waiting in line at Dunkin' Donuts, but not that much more dangerous.

Police officers should be required to watch 20 seasons of Gunsmoke before getting their badge. Without courage, a police officer is worse than useless.

To be fair, there probably are a similar percentage of lousy doctors who cause far more damage than inept police officers.

Is there a follow-up 10 years later? Are students who were more policed at school less likely to break the law later?

Maybe the USA is actually really good at preventing school shootings, given its underlying cultural dynamics.

Said no one ever because it doesn't fit into the less guns/more guns narrative.

Maybe New York was specially good in the 80s at fighting crime... Considering how much anti-Jew hatredmin Geermany, what Hitler could have done?

'Maybe the USA is actually really good at preventing school shootings, given its underlying cultural dynamics.'

Well, considering how the USA is No. 1 in this area, I'm not sure where the underlying cultural dynamics would come in, except for that seeming endless American striving to be the best mass murderer you can be.

Well cops probably do a good job convincing your people society is hopeless and the most constructive thing they can do is shoot as many school prisoners and guards as possible.

So where are the "stun drones" and "automatic mace sprayers" and "robobludgeoners"? If this was 1920s America there would already be a range of wildly impractical technical solutions proposed to end school shootings, but all America can come up with at the moment is some variation on restricting guns / more guns. Where's the innovation? Where's an insectoid robot with a 5,000 volt grip? Where's a huge steel ball roaming the corridors with millimeter radar to detect gun components and an implacable desire to latch onto them with a powerful electromagnet? Where's the automatic eye poking station? What's with America where they can make self driving cars but can't make a combination floor waxer / gun user rammer?

the sad state of America.............

I invite you to the South side of Chicago, or even the South suburbs. Have you been in a school with rich blacks, poor blacks and Latinos? You better have guards.

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