Not the United States

The father was detained in February; three months later the mother was also taken away by authorities. They had allegedly shared extremist Islamist content on their mobile phones, family friends said. Despite protests from relatives, two of their children, aged 18 and 15, were then detained and their younger two, aged seven and nine, were sent to a state welfare centre. “The grandfather even wept, but the authorities would not let him keep his grandchildren,” recalled an acquaintance.

So what’s up?:

As the Trump administration struggles to reunite migrants and their children forcibly separated at the US border, China has been separating families on a far larger scale as part of a rapidly intensifying security campaign.

That is from Emily Feng at the FT, via Comrade Balding.

Comments

Condolences Trumpies. You were on your way to matching Chinese efficiency until those mean old courts blocked you.

I thought it was the courts, with the 20 day rule, that forced the separations.

You thought wrong.

"The Flores agreement was the court ruling that the administration had pointed to for its policy of family separation — because it couldn’t keep children detained longer than 20 days, per Flores, it had to split children from their parents while the parents were in detention."

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/10/17553526/trump-separate-immigrant-families-ruling

Flores agreement: Trump’s executive order to end family separation might run afoul of a 1997 court ruling

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/20/17484546/executive-order-family-separation-flores-settlement-agreement-immigration

Nobody was invoking Flores before Trump. That was his excuse to do something no one else was horrible enough to do.

What happened was, Trump changed how families seeking asylum were treated. Before Trump families stayed together and worked through the immigration courts. Then he decided to create a deterrent by treating them as criminals not asylum seekers, and when you lock up the parents you gotta put the kids somewhere. If he had just kept things as is, no problem.

+1 for the clarity of your explanation.
But its water off a duck's back for Trumpistas.

True Trump prosecuted them more often but Flores caused the separation problem. Trump has fought Flores to keep the family together, but lost in court. I can't blame Trump for following the law.

You could blame him for treating asylum seekers as criminals leading to this disaster, but that would require you to grow up.

Once again, the news media blows something out of proportion. The reason this happens so often is that American business loves profiting off the Holocaust. Just take a look at American pornography, and the 25+million viewers. It (holocaust portrayal) is built on reliving and staging the tragic circumstances, through music, through dialogue, through acting. And who's to assume that no pornographers watch child pornography - a $2 billion industry, built on a communist ethos of liberation.

No need to grow up. Even children know people trying to sneak in are breaking the law. These are not asylum seekers. Asylum seekers present themselves at a port of entry.

Yes I'm not surprised you are resisting being a mature adult and not another partisan idiot.

Before Trump families stayed together and worked through the immigration courts

You mean the 10% of them who showed up for their asylum hearings? 'Cause that doesn't really describe the other 90% of the defensive asylum seekers who were released with a hearing date.

"Condolences Trumpies. You were on your way to matching Chinese efficiency until those mean old courts blocked you."

What? Are you trying to imply that Checks and Balances actually works? The next ridiculous thing you'll be trying to tell us is that The Hand Maiden's Tale isn't coming true!

Phht! We all know that Trump is literally Hitler.

I think we both know I'm not a Trump=Hitler guy. You're thinking of Polar Bear. But he sure does some awful stuff sometimes.

Oh, I agree you're pretty rational. That was just intended as some mildly humorous sarcasm. :)

Don't be such a ratfucker.

Trump is both not smart enough and not evil enough to be a Hitler. But you know don't let that stop you from dragging it down to the juvenile.

There is plenty of real shit to be concerned about.

Cuss word Bear is calling me juvenile LOL

Yep, because rather than deal with your errors you would rather strike out.

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a shit what you think.

By the way, on the origin of the term:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfucking

What's the largest net effect of pornography besides you know cummming? It's paranoia.

Maybe the problem here is that the people who thought they were right in 2016 and 2017 realize now they were wrong and that the only game they got is troll.

"Maybe the problem here is that the people who thought they were right in 2016 and 2017"

Would that be the people who thought Hillary was destined to win? Or the people that thought Trump's election signaled a collapse in the economy? Or the people who believed that Trump's election would immediately return thousands of jobs in the coal industry? Or result in a Pax Americana?

There were so many people that were delusional. Could you narrow it down a little bit?

On the other hand, the people who thought Trump was stupid, with authoritarian tendencies, got it in one.

Recognizing of course that none of us said "Trump=Hitler" and that was just ratfucking after the fact.

Oh good, I got it in one then.

I think an entirely fair assessment of what you argued was that Trump may be stupid and authoritarian but the checks and balances will hold.

Do you think family separation passes that test?

For that matter, do you think he has managed any obstruction of justice?

Yes it does, because the courts stopped him from continuing that.

Jury's still out on obstruction of justice. He's obviously corrupt, but I doubt a Republican Senate impeaches him.

I don't think that's really a good answer. A lot of children have been harmed, and a lot of children are still not reunited, it is not really "as good as new" for the courts to tell them to fix it.

Other than a time machine, there's no other way to right a wrong than for it to be corrected after the fact. Hard to do that instantaneously.

Cracks me up how you get with people who basically agree with you about Trump but aren't as strident as you about it.

Do you not understand what your own argument was? I thought it was the checks and balances would stop bad things from happening.

Not that bad things would happen and then we would say "oh let's fix them and everything is fine again."

Because that's a pretty crap level of success.

Do you not understand what your own emotional appeal (it's not even an argument) is? You are saying Trump is really bad. I am agreeing with you. You are saying no but he's really bad. I am saying well yes but he's president so now the system will constrain him. You are saying he's just so so bad. I am saying yes he is but what exactly is your point?

You are the one who ratfucked me with "Trump=Hitler" and started all this.

In August of 2017, journalist Marcy Wheeler garnered the disapprobation of the Federal Communications Commission when she used the term [ratfucking] in a radio broadcast. Wheeler maintained that the word has become a term of art in political science and is thus not an obscenity.

...

The FCC disagreed.

What in the name of Ivanka are you blathering about now? How did I "ratfuck" you?

Are you dense? You made up a position I never had, a much more extreme position, in order to undermine the moderate positions I've actually taken.

That is an underhanded political trick. You are underhanded. Or simply a troll.

Please quote the post where I did anything of the sort. I'll give you a hint, JWatts did that upthread and you seem to think I did it.

Actually mea culpa I did say you were Trump=Hitler. I apologize but I was being glib. You don't think he = Hitler but you are much more strident and desperate in your disapproval than I am in mine.

I have never said "Trump=Hitler" nor anything like it.

But in pretending I did, you attempted to paint my actual comments in that light.

That is deeply dishonest, and frankly it is one of the reasons why having a permanent name at a place like MR is a bad idea.

Someone will always fuck with you and say you said something you didn't say.

Why? because arguing with things you didn't say is easier than arguing with things you did say.

I agree, and I apologize. But your identity is as 'permanent' as the rest of us at this point.

The profanity lets you know he is serious, though.

As I say, you do have the FCC on your side.

Maybe you should reread Wikipedia on utilitarianism. It's not a bad starting point, choosing policies which reduce total suffering.

Making more suffering, and then reducing it again, is not net-net utilitarianism.

The bad choice was made and cannot be unmade. So now we do our best to fight for the good with Trump as president.

Utilitarianism..?

Oh yeah, I remember that. I believed it about the age of 16 to 17, before it's abhorrent consequentialist logic became fully apparent to my juvenile mind. Still, points for at least trying out a coherent ethical system.

Because basically I think the reality of now is much worse than the reality you predicted, and you are more concerned with protecting your own feelings than dealing with that.

But hey, there's a lot of that going around.

Psychiatrist Bear knows my inmost feelings.

I'm sure he's referring to some comment of mine, where what I actually said was that Trump makes his supporters look like literal fascists. Not Trump is literally Hitler.

I don't feel so charitable. I think you say something nuanced about authoritarianism and these guys come back with "oh my God, you think everyone is Hitler!"

Your friends are now finding secret Nazi messages in DHS press releases, presumably with their super-secret resistance decoder rings.

https://www.redstate.com/streiff/2018/07/01/dhs-press-release-hides-secret-nazi/

Yeah, I think too many Dems register 8.1 on the adjust Godwin scale.

I think it's delightful to watch these losers beat other up over Trump. They all have a bad case of TDS. This is why I voted for him, just to mess these losers up. They lost an election ~1.5 yrs ago and they are still freaking out, even as the checks and balances manage to keep things within reasonable bounds.

That's how you decide who to vote for? Not a surprise considering the quality of your posts.

Or the people who thought Trump wasn't serious about all that trade War bullshit. Or that the fundamental ideological constitution of the Republican party wouldn't be irrevokably altered if he won.

It's beautiful!

Apparently, China has a living constitution, too. They swing both ways.

My wife swings both ways too. Apparently my cuckold self is unable to satisfy her needs.

Yes, Prof. Cowen is actually saying that when compared to China, the U.S. is less efficient at taking children away from their parents.

Imagine someone writing this about the U.S. any time in the last 50 years as a defense of American government policy, and then imagine saying any time in the last 50 years that this is what the U.S. would do as a matter of intentional policy on the part of a president.

Welcome to 2018, where Putin is considered easier for an American president to deal with than the Prime Minister of the UK, at least according to the president.

Well Theresa May is pretty darn awful. And when it comes to separating families she makes everyone not Danish look like a piker.

If Trump separated me from my wife, I wouldn't mind if they kept her with lots of foreign men. I'm a cuck after all.

'Saying' might not be the best term - 'highlighting' is undoubtedly more accurate.

China's plans for Tibet and Xinjiang: water down native political power, replace the population with pro-CCP Han, increase GDP with Han development (colonization).

The US should have done the same with Mexico... instead of vice versa.

Didn't the US do this with a decent chunk of what used to be Mexico?

I think the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo gave native Hispanics much better rights than minorities now get in China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guadalupe_Hidalgo

The Confederates dreamed of finishing the job. Too bad the Yankees foiled them.

China is following a strategy of homogenisation of peoples and cultures. This is the strategy that many empires employ, from the Babylonian captivity to America's turn of the century melting pot. Of course, the Chinese are more forceful than one would like for the 21st Century. But is this strategy really worse than likely outcomes of heterogeneity. It's hard to test the counterfactual, but is the Chinese approach any worse than the Ottoman's or Israel/Palestine? I sometimes wish we Americans could stomach the "microaggressions" and "appropriation" and go back to the melting pot. Americans knew how to do empire right, much better than the Chinese ever could.

Agreed, the American killer app was always assimilation and the 'melting pot' metaphor. I hope it can continue.

That's your white privilege talking. "Melting pot" is simply a euphemism for the systemic erasing of minority cultures and forcing everyone to assimilate into white hegemony where people of color are systemically oppressed, disadvantaged, and exploited.

Now there's someone who is woke.

Yes the people you are mocking are pretty stupid.

No counter-argument, just name-calling and accusations of insincerity. Not much more than I expected from an apologist for white supremacy.

Not bad, but you've made your point. You can stop now, we agree those people are dumb.

No U

U times infinity

Infinity is a hegemonic construct. As a POC, I reject the concept as a token of oppression.

As a white guy, my wife prefers the company of men of color. Does that make me a cuck? Who am I kidding? Yes, yes, and YES!

More Not the United States

As the Johnson administration struggled to ramp up U.S. troop deployments to South Vietnam to thwart a perceived communist takeover, nearby Indonesia dealt with its perceived communist threat by simply butchering 500-600,000 people in a short period of time.

We're not as bad as the Chinese! *wave tiny American flag*

And the tiny flag was almost surely made in China.

Are 18 year olds children?

Yes that's awful, but the term "migrants" without a modified is even worse.

Is my 18 year old child still one of my children? Yes.

China's misbehavior has no bearing on how the U.S.A. should conduct itself. The Jerry Springer show is no reason to lower standards.

So really, confiscating all wealth over a billion dollars is pretty mild, compared to Communist China.

(I'm liking this argument).

Such is life in Xi's Red China. Yet, America keeps supporting Satan.

We knew all along Trump authoritarians are no better than commies.

This level of police control on society is *very expensive*.

The Chinese wouldn't do it for fun or purely out of hatred, they generally lean pragmatic.

So the most likely explanation is that there are serious security threats they face that those blinded by liberal democracy do not see.

Perhaps we are past the stage when liberal democracy was a good religion to follow.

'So the most likely explanation is that there are serious security threats they face that those blinded by liberal democracy do not see.'

Almost sounds like an epitath for Stasi, actually, as the DDR was overthrown by internal security threats that could not be contained, regardless of expense.

That is irrelevant to the point.

It is sad ro see Americans rushing to defend Chinese fascism.

I am not American, but I love Americans. I hope they use this example to better understand the limitations of democracy.

All political systems are imperfect, and their costs and benefits depend on various internal and external factors. Democracy is one such dogmatic system, which worked very well for a few centuries in a particular phase of western growth. Dogmas can work well under specific conditions.

Democracy within the US can probably work reasonably for a bit longer, but not necessarily in a given other country, and not necessarily at a future point of time in US history. Americans should really stop assuming it to be more universal than it is.

Trump's public image is of that of a carnival barker.

Xinhua Jinping presents a diffident exterior to the world.

I am sad to say many of my colleagues in academia and media appear to judge a book by its cover

This is just tactics to scare away migrants - Another of Trump's block-headed way to deal with any situations!

I hope it works, otherwise we will be overrun with illegal aliens carrying children as if they were visas.

According to the Washington Times, illegal immigration was up 200% in March and 233% in April. So Trump's hardball tactics don't seem to work.

"carrying children as if they were visas."

LOL!

Chad China, virgin USA

Perhaps we can import some hard headed Chinamen to do the:

"Jobs Americans Don't Want"

how can a 7yo not stay with his grandfather ?
shame on america

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