The Amish in Minneapolis protest

See the sign? “Thou shall not kill anymore”.

Comments

I was wondering if the Amish knew what was going on right now.

If you want to troll, troll better than a third grader.

To be fair to him, Gary, I do act like a child a lot. However, the comment was certainly unnecessary, I usually try to just ignore those.

A religious gathering that won't get shut down I'd wager, and about which it won't be much argued should be shut down...

It's darkly hilarious how quick the pivot has been from "Everything must shut down!" to "It's OK for people to be out protesting! Or at least we won't tell them to stop on Covid's account...".

I seriously doubted that the "People will stop talking about covid when the campaigning stops" paranoia being spread by some right Republican posters on here was correct.

"Americans are surely more serious people than that", I thought, "They aren't just LARPing as concerned about covid, they are actually concerned and sincere", I thought.

But it seems like the "Oh, covid was last week, Black-Lives-Matter is this week" crowd, are doing their very best to prove them right...

It has been shocking how fast the pivot has been from "those I'm not allied with shouldn't be protesting due to $REASON (in this case covid)" to "those with whom I am allied need their to be afforded their 1st amendment rights!"

Also "these are protests" not riots. Its brilliant to watch the wordsmithing.

While I blame twitter for linking so many in such a friction free manner and causing many of these issues, I do thank twitter to making these nakedly partisan arguments clear, to those that wish to watch.

Yes, because protesting decades of police brutality is the same as protesting months of temporary restrictions. Of course we should eqaute them. Apples eqaul oranges, simple.

Hello friends, how is everything, and what you wish for to
say on the topic of this piece of writing, in my view its truly awesome in favor of me.

Your thinking is not very nuanced. That's why the world must be a confusing place to you. At least you can amuse yourself.

Well, that really told me.

when I think of M I think of John Huston in Casino Royale, which is a different M.

This M seems fairly nuanced in her or his thinking, though.

he's just jealous of Tyrone...

You clearly aren't clued in. Let me clarify:

Protest over shut down=bad, irresponsible
Protest over police violence=acceptable

Got it?

protest over shutdown = whining about temporary but effective public health measures
protest over police violence = anger about decades of police brutality

protests over shut down ≠ protests over police violence

Microbes won’t make a distinction, unfortunately. Humans should be capable of doing so.

Centuries actually but I hear you.

Weren't the Left/Liberals smugly laughing and were hoping for mass infections for the "Re-Open America" protesters...I guess now social distancing is a myth or the virus has been defeated since the white left-liberals that are shutting down cities and (some ANTIFA provocateur types) are trashing them.

Tangentially, imagine if right wing types were destroying the CNN HQ in Atlanta, the N*zi kristallnacht hyperbole editorials, odd how that's not how it's being characterized, if not played down.

Don't worry, they've now figured out how to do both, and are claiming all the rioters are actually Nazis sent by Trump to create damage to blame on liberals. This is literally what the news and prominent democrats are claiming.

Haha, it's literally not

I don't think there's much overlap between the people who are super-worried about COVID and the Black Lives Matter crowd, and it was visible even from the earliest days would have noted that African-Americans were the demographic that was social distancing the least, and this is in my opinion a major if not the primary cause of the racial disparities in infections and deaths.

In any event, the super-concerned about COVID crowd has been shrinking from quite some time now, and nearly all areas have started getting back to normal. Of course, getting back to normal means getting back to our normal protests schedule too :).

Not too much concern among the authorities either, the same ones advocating partial or full shutdown. Gatherings of over 10 people are banned in Minnesota.

Has there been any enforcement against spontaneous large gatherings? Large gatherings have are prohibited in my state too, but I'm pretty sure there have been hundreds of people in my local park every day with good weather since the shutdowns began.

No, there hasn’t been. Also no enforcement against rioting and looting.

I hope they “spontaneously gather” at your house next so you can lecture them about the lives they’re endangering by their lack of social distancing.

Los Angeles is resorting to a curfew tonight, which I guess constitutes mandatory social distancing.

I'm sure it's just coincidental that the flip to "of course we're not worried about social distancing anymore" is happening when it's politically useful to do so. Watch next for the flip back to the original "only conspiratorial rubes wear face masks."

Well, yes, fear about COVID and social distancing peaked weeks before the Floyd killing and resulting protests. The talk for the last couple weeks has all been about reopening. In my city, Memorial Day weekend already felt basically normal in terms of people being out-and-about.

Donnie wasn't concerned when those alt-right blokes were protesting was he?

Thank the Lord for the Mennonites. You are people of a true Christian faith that follow the footsteps of Jesus. You really love the Beatitudes as do I. God bless you

Assuming this group actually is Amish, it's a shame to see them stoop to virtue-signalling like the rest of the goodwhites. They had a leg up on the rest of us by being isolated and largely independent and self-sufficient from our society; it would have been wise to keep it that way.

Someone should do a (sordid) history of "virtue signalling," where it really started, and how it became as the author notes a new code for having sympathy, for anyone.

LOL, the Bulwark. Not sure about the where, but as to when, its prevalence tracks nicely with the proliferation of social media.

Of course, when you're a Very Smart And Serious Person™, and you derive your identity by your image on social media, it can be hard to separate virtue-signalling from sympathy.

Your shtick today is that when someone says "I have sympathy" you say "no, that's just signalling."

I suppose someone has to be that debased, and today it's you.

If you say "I have sympathy" it's literally a signal.

I will allow that it is a communication, but the amazing thing here is that you are trying to tell us no one should ever communicate sympathy.

Gosh, if only there were some way to communicate sympathy other than shouting it into the vacuum of social media and watching those likes pile up...

Yeah, like maybe living a life without electronics and Showing up to protest a murder? Do you honestly think those Amish folks are counting their likes?

Walker just crushed Lasers, +5 i.p.

Can one be metaphorically an asshole?

I demonstrate sympathy for people in daily life all the time. Never get called virtue-signalling.

I imagine if I were to go online and very loudly have sympathy for whatever the political trend it was to have sympathy for, in a way calculated as to gain the highest prominence, people may be less charitable about my motives. Or even if I were to so offline in a smaller social group. And quite rightly they would.

I'd say true virtue-signaling is when someone expresses a "virtuous" opinion in public while holding the opposite view in private. While theoretically possible, I think this is extremely rare.

I don't think there is anything wrong with someone expressing a sincerely held belief at a protest or on social media. Public expression is part of modern culture. If someone says "I like Product X and you should buy it" on social media, and they mean it sincerely and are not being paid to say that or something, then I would not think they have an ulterior motive; in fact, I'd find it helpful and may look more into Product X myself if they were someone that I trusted had similar preferences to me, etc. It's the same when someone says "I support Social Cause X" or "I have sympathy for Oppressed Person/Group X" on social media.

No, there’s no requirement at all for it to be hypocritical.

Partisanship is shutting down everyone’s brain to the point where anonymous is arguing virtue signaling doesn’t exist by virtue signaling as hard as he can.

Virtue signaling is Puritan villages in the 17th century. It’s the exact same impulse. Or Pakistani honor killings.

It’s a purity spiral that ends in stupidity and madness

I don’t think that’s it. I would say doing useless things (e.g. Twitter hashtags or picketing or loudly banging a drum ‘to support healthcare workers’ at 7pm in public where everyone can see you) that only serve advertise one’s virtuousness beliefs also counts. Even doing virtuous things one sincerely believes are virtuous, if done primarily for the ulterior motive of garnering applause, falls under this definition. E.g. conspicuously donating money to a charity.

Not necessarily a bad thing, per the last example, maybe usually harmless if annoying, where it’s harmful is when people (as they often do) find that the easiest way to demonstrate virtue is to demonize someone else.

"the easiest way to demonstrate virtue is to demonize someone else."

Which of course includes Shark and all the other anti virtue signalers, who of course are virtue signaling by demonizing everyone they don't agree with.

here is the funny part
" virtual signaling" is a liberal pseudo/popsociology term that can mean anything to anybody at anytime. now that everbody knows it is a scam liberals are attempting to rebrand their invention as a right wing trap.
-its a memezombie meme overused & useless and should be considered satire until proven otherwise

(Note, I don't actually think the Amish are "virtue-signalling". I saw Witness, that documentary, I know how sincerely they must feel about police violence. But it is frankly not, in general, a term used for everyone who has sympathy for anyone at all. And it is obviously a valid construct.)

"Assuming this group is actually Amish" -- you got a problem with Amish people? They don't do electricity much, internet probably less, and seem unlikely to have planned this as a clever ruse to appeal the "woke" among us. Why not just assume they think cops shouldn't kill other humans with impunity. They're a minority group too, in their own way.

At least they aren't burning down cities to make their point.

When is "virture signalling" really a display of ethical behaviour? or does your world not account for such a thing?

Well Mike, one easy way to tell is that you don't need a camera present to display ethical behavior.

Come to think of it, I was under the impression that the Amish generally try to stay away from electricity. This might be one of those oil-burning cameras, granted.

Totally agree, all these virtue-signaling good cops with body cams displaying how they don't kill unarmed black ppl are just showing off!

Interestingly, studies show that body cams don't have an effect on police behavior.

As long as they have an effect on cop murder charges and imprisonment I think I'm okay with that

How do you know these people don't espouse the same views when the cameras are off?

The point of virtue-signalling isn't that you believe differently, as you say above. The point is that you make sure everyone knows you're On The Right Side Of History™ so that you get social credit for doing so. It goes without saying that the left has co-opted this behavior to push its agenda via mob mentality. In this case, it led to actual mobs!

Good lord, shark lasers, you write as if you’re presenting some deep new insight. Perhaps you could paraphrase our idiot-in-chief — human motivation, who knew it was so complicated? (Joey Tribiani, that’s who! This was settled on “Friends” over 20 years ago. Joey v Phoebe: Is there a purely altruistic act? Hint: there is not. ) Also, I think a couple of philosophers may have touched on it throughout the centuries.

When you receive a birthday gift, are you insulted that it may have been purchased out of both love and a sense of obligation? Do you throw it back in the virtue-signaling gift-giver’s face, wagging a finger at their belief in your credulity? Probably not.

Motivations are rarely, if ever pure. That’s how human psychology works. In my case, I’m aware of several motivations acting at once to compel my response: anger over police brutality, a desire to join the fray (even at this remove), a desire for attention, a desire to counter your facile argument (come on shark lasers, Joey Tribiani knew that motivations were complicated!,), and also, I’m waiting for my chili to cook and therefore have some time to kill.

There are no doubt other unconscious motivations acting on me. But, despite the lack of a pure, singular motive compelling me to respond, you shouldn’t doubt for a second the sincerity or depth of my contempt for police brutality, or for the nonsense you’re spouting.

So it is essentially a camera that distinguishes between true ethical behavior and virtue signaling? That is, if somehow a person's ethical action becomes public, then it is not virtuous anymore, right?

The question you need to ask is if the virtuous behavior was performed so that it would be caught on camera. Humility is a virtue too; vanity, a sin.

Exactly. It is also a sin to demonstrate your phony compassion for some while completely ignoring others.

The prosperous Mennonites of today's America seem no better than average Christians, when you look at it that way.

I don't know much about the Mennonites or the Amish; setting aside this particular case, I believe it's stupid to consider virtue signaling wrong. Sure, the individual may be doing something just to gain social approval, but if that action leads to the greater well-being of the society, then so be it. The true intention, in such cases, doesn't matter. In fact, in our society where almost all life is online, and hence on display, we should encourage virtue signaling more—as long as it leads to a better outcome.

So I certainly don't agree with you and Lasers that it's a sin.

As I noted below, virtue-signalling itself is neutral—it's when it is used to advance leftist (i.e., evil) causes that it becomes evil.

In this particular case, the people who are racing each other to display their outrage over a police killing are providing a pretext for rioting, looting, arson, and vandalism, that is carried on not as an outlet for that outrage, but as a coordinated act of sabotage meant to undermine law and order and introduce chaos that brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator. Increasingly, and in this case as well, the virtue-signallers are going so far as to voice their support for the sabotage itself, elevating their own status to collaborators.

This is hardly "lead[ing] to the greater well-being of the society", and it was facilitated precisely because the virtue-signallers are seeking social approval, manufactured by the same people who sponsor the rioting.

I agree with you there: virtue signaling is something that should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. It's not always bad nor always good.

They are Christians. That's what they do.

I think this falls pretty well within the Amish traditions of both pacifism and religious proselytism. Nothing like the heinous virtue signaling you see of whites who assuage their deep felt gilt of being scared of minorities by claiming to be allies, though they would never want to live near minorities.

Not sure pacifism involves rushing to judgment. The coroner found no evidence of strangulation. The suspect had underlying health conditions and the coroner mentioned possible drug use. These people are probably just those white supremacists who are responsible for all the rioting cleverly disguised to legitimate the current riots and to set the stage for additional rioting if the officer is acquitted.

...of these kinds of news events is watching the usual suspects defend the indefensible. A blind partisan can never say "ok yeah, that cop was caught on camera doing something horribly wrong, I can see why people are upset". They have to say "what, he didn't do anything wrong you virtue signaling evil libs!"

Truly LOLable

How about some more virtue signaling to tell the thugs among the protesters not to assault and to steal?

Exactly. Won't happen, though.

Is nobody going to mention that prolonged shutdowns almost certainly contributed to willingness to go out and protest?

It has become 1968.

1968 -wasn't that the year the democrats lost bigly because the fringier&twitchier democrats were burning the cities

There is a possibility that the olds will be frightened and want safety, but who really offers that in 2020?

Who offers normalcy?

the you know who offers more normalcy in 2020
is in the opposite party of the party burning the american cities.
that's not "fear" either its common sense.

Nothing about the last four years has been normal. Biden is pretty normal as far as politicians go; i.e. someone you probably don't have to pay much attention to once he's in office and you can go back to your normal life with few if any government policies affecting you or people you know personally.

biting joe biden will need close observation and neurological checks. If the unemployment rate is 25 percent it is unlikely that government policies will not affect us and people we know

In other words, you don't mind widespread corruption and abuse of power in the government as long as the media doesn't get you riled up about it.

Whatever quantum of corruption and abuse of power there was in government four years ago hasn't changed one bit, and perhaps it has increased. So what's your point?

biden is a biter

No one is going to mention that bottling people up for several months could have made even Minnesota Nice people more likely to riot and loot because we can never acknowledge the possibility that prolonged lockdowns can have negative consequences. No one will mention either that racist unionized government workers killing innocent blacks is yet one more way that Our Regulatory State is Failing Us. Finally, no one will mention that armed protestors in Michigan weren't looting and rioting while most rioters and looters (who should be distinguished from those peacefully protesting) were unarmed, at least with respect to guns, thus demonstrating that guns really don't kill people and cause violence, people do. In fact, on this last point some anti-gun folks have posted memes contrasting treatment of non-violent armed protesters with unarmed rioters and looters, apparently not noticing the non-violence of the armed protesters.

I've had arguments here about the utility of continued lockdown. Their utility lasts as long as there is broad cooperation, but when enforcement starts it falls apart very quickly.

I've talked to local police officers and the people who are closest to the edge are the ones who are suffering the most harm. It is no surprise that a collapse starts with some event in a place like that.

Then it is a rolling ball.

Epidemiology is 1/4 science and 3/4 psychology of crowds. From what I heard the epidemiologists were seeing the thing collapse, but policies take on a certain momentum. A gradual relaxation, with location and specific circumstance limits would let the pressure release.

The strangest thing is in my jurisdiction there were not rigid rules except some specific circumstances. We are on a graduated opening, and the restrictions are getting tighter in practice.

It isn't a binary of going to the beach or killing your grandma. Throw in economic collapse and burning cities.

I wonder if any of the models had Minneapolis burning down their police building?

When policy is 100% about what values it raises in status and 0% about the outcome, you get stupidity and madness.

The US is a low trust society, in which policies are almost entirely about signaling status and have little to nothing to do with the actual policy outcomes:

Exhibit 21,749

In other words, If policy is just about signaling, then who gives a f about the Public Choice constraints?

My mood affiliation brings me to immediately like these protestors and therefore whatever they’re protesting.

But I’m confused why Tyler quoted the sign as saying “Thou shall not kill anymore” when it pretty clearly says “Thou shall not kill any man.”

Maybe Mennonite? One of the protesters has a mustache as well as a beard. Mustaches are affiliated with the military.

They're outside agitators bused -- I mean buggied -- in from Lancaster Pa

+1.

I remember when the regulatory state (tm) forced them to put orange triangle on their buggies. Huge crowds of armed white supremacists showed and protested in support.

These are Old Mennonites, not Amish. There is no way Amish would protest.

What exactly is the point of this post?

As I have noted in previous posts, it's unclear if Tyler is contractually obligated to affirm on occasion that he supports the narrative, or if he natively knows when he needs to do so to make sure they don't change the locks on the door to the faculty lounge.

It's a Rathskeller, get it right.

Point of the post;

1. To indicate that if you are a part of a religious group, you do not need to maintain social distance or wear a mask.

2. They are indicating that the police sometimes harass other minorities and they are sensitive to the same issues as everyone else.

3. This is an auditioning moment for a new genre: an Amish music reality TV show.

The point is to troll you. Looks like it worked since you commented and took the bait. Well played!!!

The internet is frustrating isn't it. The only way you can express that your dislike is by commenting. But commenting means you clicked and clicks are good.

To point out that even conservative, rural whites are against racism?

Those are not Amish. Those are Menanites.

I've been a fan of this blog for years because while often there are very clear points, sometimes Tyler just like to post odd and unusual stuff that makes you go "huh".

+1, I too enjoy that

Tyler wants to see discussion of this topic but wants to avoid expressing an opinion of it.

Those are the looters that Trump wants to shoot. The military is on standby while the drones are conducting aerial surveillance.

Well, Minnesota officials this morning are claiming it's actually white supremacists that are behind the looting, arson, and violence, so now that we have some direction on who are the Good Guys and who are the Bad Guys, we can refer to this mess as a violent riot now instead of a peaceful protest and Trump ought to tweet his support for them any time now. I admit it will be hard to #cancel the Amish, but I'm sure we can do it if we try hard enough.

Maybe you can identify this white guy breaking windows:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2020/05/30/who-is-umbrella-man-mystery-vandal-at-minneapolis-riot-spurs-conspiracies/#6caee40c236e

Any buddy you know?

From the same article:

According to The Star Tribune, about 40 people were arrested over Friday night, and that Hennepin County jail records showed detainees hailed from states like Florida, Michigan, Missouri, Illinois and Alaska on charges like destroying property, breaking curfew and burglary. On Saturday morning, Saint Paul Mayor Melvin Carter said he was told that every person arrested in the city over Friday night was from out of state.

Bill, I wouldn't go so far as to insinuate that you know any Antifa members, but it's pretty clear that's who it is.

The question you ought to be asking is, who pays these guys to fly all over the country and start trouble?

You must know more than the Governor or law enforcement officials. I would assume that they would not make statements they could not support because it would be a political risk to make false claims.

We'll see.

Setting aside the gross lack of self-awareness apparent in that comment (I suppose then Trump doesn't make statements he can't support? What political risk did the Russiagate conspiracy theorists assume?) I'm genuinely curious as to who exactly you think is going to challenge these guys for defaming white supremacists. In truth they picked the safest scapegoat they could think of.

Shark,

From your comment, I don't think there is a way to defame white supremacists. It goes with the territory.

Nonetheless, the officials know as well as you and I that they can use white supremacists as a bogeyman and no one will mind one bit, whether it's true or not. Of course, anyone with an ounce of common sense would notice that this is a stark departure from the white supremacists' usual MO. Unfortunately common sense is in short supply these days, cf. coronavirus scare.

St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter said most of the arrests made last night were of people from out of state and while “there’s a group of folks that are sad and mourning,” he said “there seems to be another group that are using Mr. Floyd’s death as a cover to create havoc.”

Department of Safety Commissioner John Harrington said they are contact-tracing the arrested and added that an investigation is underway about white nationalist groups posting online to encourage their members to use the protests as a cover to create chaos.

He said some of the 40 arrests made in the Twin Cities Friday night were of people linked to white supremacist groups and organized crime.

“The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents,” Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said. “They are coming largely from outside the city outside the region to prey on everything we have built.”

https://www.courthousenews.com/minnesota-officials-link-arrested-looters-to-white-supremacist-groups/

So is everyone who lives outside of Minneapolis a white supremacist?

Your comment makes no sense.

Neither does assuming that just because people have been arrested from out of state, that those people must be white supremacists, but here we are.

Here is some more for you Shark.

"On his way home from a protest Friday night in Minneapolis, Jonathan Turner Bargen encountered a white man in a red pickup truck. The man was carrying an assault rifle and a handgun, Turner Bargen said. Then he noticed a symbol from the far-right militia group Three Percenters affixed to the truck.

“I circled back and took pictures of the vehicle. I was concerned about why they were present at the downtown protest, and had no idea who to notify,” said Turner Bargen in an email to MPR News.

He added that he was afraid to confront the person, and afraid to call the police.

State officials, protesters and residents say they’re alarmed by the presence of extremists who may be using Twin Cities protests against the police killing of George Floyd as cover to burn down buildings and face off with law enforcement. Hundreds of buildings have been damaged and many totally burned in recent days. ....

Protesters and onlookers have posted numerous videos and accounts of confrontations with white men on social media, sometimes including symbols associated with fringe groups that originated online.

Many people have also told MPR News reporters of witnessing armed men in Minneapolis.

Bridget Schumann was out for a run near Calhoun Square in south Minneapolis on Friday night when she saw a truck that was being driven aggressively, honking and intimidating other drivers. The truck had a big white sticker on the back of the cab with the OK sign symbol associated with white supremacists.

“There were two men in the driver and passenger seat and they were wearing camo bulletproof vests and they were armed,” she said.

Schumann watched them get out of the truck and walk around in an apartment building parking garage like they were looking for something. She saw them scream at a woman leaving the garage. After they saw Schumann again, she got scared and called her boyfriend to pick her up.

“Very out of place. They weren’t cops, they weren’t National Guard,” Schumann said. “It was all just really hostile.”

Hexagon Bar burned.
The still smoking Hexagon Bar in South Minneapolis on Friday, the morning after it burned during protests in response to George Floyd's death.Nate Ryan | MPR
In the predawn hours of Friday, KJ Starr watched from her yard in the Seward neighborhood, which has been especially hard hit by arson, as nearby buildings were consumed by balls of fire and billowing smoke.

With police and firefighters nowhere in sight, Starr and friends have been trying to fight fires themselves. When a nearby pizza shop went up in flames, she and some friends walked over to see what they could do. She was terrified by what she saw.

“This pickup truck of a dozen armed men just pulls up next to us,” she said. “I just did a total pivot.”

Arson at a liquor store
Minneapolis resident Rishi Ragoonanan woke up early for work on Friday morning, and saw a man who appeared to be white walk up to boxes of cardboard in the middle of a liquor store parking lot. The man lit the boxes, pushed them up against the wall of the store, and walked away.

Ragoonanan and neighbors ran outside and dragged the flaming boxes away from the wall. The liquor store was set on fire again the next night.

“None of us got any sleep for the last four days, trying to save this liquor store,” Ragoonanan said. “If this liquor catches fire, this whole neighborhood will burn down.”

A pickup truck a symbol from a far-right militia group on the window.
A pickup truck with a Minnesota license plate and a symbol from far-right militia group Three Percenters on the window is parked in Minneapolis on Friday, several blocks from a protest following the killing of George Floyd.Courtesy of Jonathan Turner Bargen
Many people say they are leery of confronting those they suspect of contributing to the violence.

Here is the link: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/30/outsiders-extremists-are-among-those-fomenting-violence-in-twin-cities

The technical term for this is "circumstantial evidence". Again, where else has anyone documented any of these groups committing acts of arson and vandalism? Don't you think that any of these "journalists" who breathlessly report on armed men "storming" government buildings would have noticed if they did anything like this? Use your head, Bill, and stop uncritically absorbing everything the media tells you.

OK, here's another one. From USA Today:

"Most of them appear to be white. They carry no signs and don't want to speak to reporters. Trailed by designated "medics" with red crosses taped to their clothes, these groups head straight for the front lines of the conflict.

Night after night in this ravaged city, these small groups do battle with police and the National Guard, kicking away tear gas canisters and throwing back foam-rubber projects fired at them. Around them, fires break out. Windows are smashed. Parked cars destroyed. USA TODAY reporters have witnessed the groups on multiple nights, in multiple locations. Sometimes they threaten those journalists who photograph them destroying property.

The mayor and governor say outside agitators are hijacking peaceful protests over the death of George Floyd and literally fanning the flames of destruction. And experts say things will likely get worse in Minneapolis and in other cities seeing similar peaceful protests that turn violent like Los Angeles; Louisville, Kentucky; Des Moines, Iowa; Detroit, Atlanta; and Washington, D.C.

“The real hard-core guys, this is their job: They’re involved in this struggle," said Adam Leggat, a former British Army counterterrorism officer who now works as a security consultant specializing in crowd management for the Densus Group. "They need protests on the street to give them cover to move in.”

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/5291658002

Shark, keep challenging and I will keep sending you and others the information I find.

This is an article about Antifa, Bill. Do you even remember the point you were trying to make?

You read a part that is by an outside person claiming it was AntiFa, and ignored the comments about white supremcists in the crowd.

Anarchists, which are also mentioned by the same person, have more in common with some Libertarians.

Shark,

Do you think Trump's encouraging police to get tougher is the way to go? Or, do you see it as an accelerant designed to promote a Nixonian attempt at a law and order campaign.

Nixon won on law and order, if you'll recall. (It turns out that most of the country prefers that to the chaos desired by the left.) He also suffered the gate that the leftists had planned for Trump too.

So, you do think that Trump's comments that the police should get tougher is part of a campaign strategy.

Well, when he loses, he won't go down as healer in chief.

Neither did the last guy, who actually encouraged race riots.

Sailer says Trump ought to announce he'll give a full pardon to anyone who kills a looter or rioter in the act. Can't say I don't find that intriguing. Plus, hey, you'll be taking down white supremacists, right?

Each comment you make paints a picture of who you are.

Yes, a person who values law and order over anarchy and chaos.

(By the way, it wasn't Steve Sailer but one of his fellow bloggers over at The Site Which Shall Not Be Named; sorry for the slander, Steve.)

Provoke the violence and
Then declare
Law and Order.

can you point to some examples of Obama encouraging race riots? Genuinely curious about what concrete statements of his can be interpreted this way.

I'm not sure what this fascination with the drones is on the interwebs. First, they aren't carrying munitions, so that's a good start. And, second, they're significantly better flying unnoticed at 20,000 ft than having a loud ass, invasive, and fear-inducing helicopter hovering at 5,000 ft.

It seems Minneapolis (among other cities) could use a few more choppers, since the "protesters" clearly aren't afraid of "protesting". (Which is curious, since the genesis of this is the notion that people of color shouldn't have to fear the police.)

Drones are technology created, deployed, and used in war zones that later get re-purposed for domestic use using all the learnings and tactics from overseas. A real libertarian would be concerned about any and all power the government arbitrarily gives itself that it didn't have before. Do you remember when you voted for drone surveillance? Or even had a debate?

Drones were out flying well before the military started using them. Mostly amateur use.

There certainly is a history of the US government (federal, local, or intelligence services overseas/domestically) installing instigators to discredit ideologically opposed groups - not implying that this going on now though, the umbrella carrying masked Caucasian man in MN notwithstanding .

There is an opportunity for either white supremacists to infiltrate to discredit or white anarchists to escalate. There is an incentive for MSM/politicians to amplify one group as the provocateur than another, to externalize the blame, and possibly reduce the racial tension by doing so.

So the fault lies in some white guy whether the ANTIFA loser, the right wing loser, or better yet to please everyone 'Russians.'

But I'm trying to imagine a bulletin to the police stating "make sure you only beat up the white guys! Just check first to confirm they're from out of town!"

A win-win for local politicians by being woke and not blaming their locals for the looting and possibly pleasing the police unions.

Where are their facemasks? How can they properly virtue-signal without facemasks? Haul the scurvy lot of them downtown, I say

Respirator masks are 20th century technology. It might go against their faith to use such advanced technology.

Then they should wear those medieval plague doctor masks with the long beaks.

The problem with anti virtue-signaling is that it always teeters on the edge of being anti-virtue signaling.

As I noted above, when you derive your identity by your image on social media, it can be hard to remember that you can actually have feelings without broadcasting them on Twitter. In your case, admittedly, it's hard to tell whether you simply did forget that or you just have a pathological need to sort everyone you interact with into Good Guy and Bad Guy bins like it's a Harry Potter novel.

Yeah right, I "anonymous" care about my "identity on social media."

Moron.

Right, so it's about the need to be the Good Guy against the Bad Guys. No gray areas in your Harry Potter novel.

(As an aside, and I really hate to mention this because I know it will induce feelings of sexual arousal in you, you seem to forget that people know who "anonymous" is on here, even among others with the same name. If you really didn't care, you would pick a ridiculous name that highlights how Unsmart and Unserious you are. Like Shark Lasers!)

I recognize this for what it is, a very weak attempt to say that there is no good or evil in our world, and we have no moral obligation to you understand it.

I suggest a Lutheran catechism.

The term you're looking for is moral relativism, which is a tool of leftists during the introductory phase of their subversions. For example, before it became verboten to criticize gay marriage the left justified it via moral relativism. "Who's to say it's good or evil? Let people live their own lives by their own code!" Now of course it's simply Good™ and anyone who disagrees is Evil™.

Virtue-signalling is neither good nor evil, it's neutral, or perhaps, neutrally annoying, but neutral nonetheless. Now, when you unwittingly advance leftist causes through virtue-signalling, it is in fact evil, but that's only because leftism, at its core, is evil. It's not virtue-signalling's fault.

The difference, of course, is that when I call you out on virtue-signalling, I am not making a judgment on the moral state of your virtue. It's entirely possible that I agree with you and just find you annoying (I do, by the way, on the annoying part at least).

Where you went wrong was assuming that, because I didn't join in virtue-signalling Good™ things with you, that I must therefore support Evil™ things. That's simple-minded Harry Potter BS and why no one takes you seriously.

Extra "you" there.

Oh is that why you point out when someone else posts something offensive under the handle anonymous that it is not The Anonymous(TM)?

Your use of the handle anonymous is virtue signaling. "I care so little of what people think of me that I post anonymously". Except you do care as demonstrated by your posts.

My purpose in every comment is to communicate an idea, or occasionally dismiss one.

And I think the ideas here, good or bad, are far more important than their attachment to the various handles we use.

Don’t be DENSE anonymous-there is skin in the game and there is virtue signaling....

One gets more credit than the other.

What is funny is that there is a poor black ghetto in every major American city as a function of the New Deal, zoning laws, red lining, “urban renewal”, Jim Crow, anti density advocates, post war suburbanism, and yet every time we get one of these tragedies all we get is calls for people’s own political preferences.

In this case, most of the commies and “democratic” socialists come out of the woodwork screaming about neo liberlism.

Yet none of the above issues plaguing the black race in America has to do with Neo liberalism. Get rid of the nimbys and maybe you can start to break the cycle.

I once mentioned in these pages making a donation, and someone responded "stop your virtue signaling."

So no, skin in the game does not matter to "virtue signaling" "critics"

All that matters is that they can devalue someone else's compassion.

Note that if you demand everyone be secret in their compassion, you are actively enforcing that compassion does not spread.

Skin in the game allows virtue signaling to have meaning.....

It’s fine to support and promote virtuous behavior but without skin in the game it’s meaningless signaling.

I’m many ways, even though I don’t like commies, antifa, and democratic socialists-at least I can respect their skin in the game game on this one.

How long they’ll actually care is a different question though....

Personally I don't think the "skin in the game" distinction is useful at all.

We have thousands of years of human history and thinking on morality and action.

We can have sympathy for anyone who takes those questions seriously.

And we can have sympathy for anyone who takes those questions seriously, but for some reason or unable to act.

Purity spirals are gross.

Whether it’s a Woke white Boomer or a Southern Baptist preacher, it’s equally disgusting.

Your holier than thou shtick needs to end.

That really drives home the need to evict leftists from the country, pronto. If they think they can live peacefully in a vibrantly diverse society without police protection, then they need to put their money where their mouth is, instead of dragging normal people along with them.

Ironically, it's the actual anti-government crowd (not the nominal anti-government crowd, such as the libertarian pundit infestation we have in this country) who are better-equipped to survive without police protection. A further irony is that leftists take the first opportunity they have to vilify anyone who demonstrates what defense of yourself, your family, and your property might look like in such a scenario (the "jogger" case being the latest example).

It's not about justice, it's about reducing society to chaos.

I sincerely hope you're okay Sharkman and things get better wherever you are. I agree we shouldn't sort people into bins like leftists who need to go and libertarian pundit infestation.

I am also pretty sure this is just some good faith Minnesotans trying to be as nice and helpful as possible (have you met Minnesotans? they're great!) on an issue that causes so much pain for so many fellow Americans.

God bless dude.

What’s the priority? The liberal news elevates these incidents to national attention while other types of injustices go unreported on.

How about those of us from whom the government takes 50 cents of every dollar we make and gives it to thugs who sell drugs to our kids, break into our cars, and burn down our businesses/raise our insurance costs and then cherry tops by shutting down sales for two months?!

I get it sucks if your kid gets shot after committing a petty crime but what about those of us working our asses off just to get butt pounded by libs and government?

The priority is what gets eyeballs. Media is a business at the end of the day.

Dear Tyler Cowen,
When your message board finally gets to the level that the above messages show it has, it is time to do what other sites (Big Picture, Calculated Risk) did years ago: recognize that you are just providing a free forum for garbage and shut it down.

Hear hear. This message board has been trash for as long as I’ve been following MR. It is a sickening place, and it’s time to end it.

But it's extremely easy to not read it, as if it didn't exist at all. For you it doesn't have to.

Wow, how were you able to recognize "garbage" comments without Twitter fact-checkers pointing them out for you? Maybe, we can learn something from that...

Yep let’s cancel everything that makes us uncomfortable or we disagree with.

Or you could not read the comments. Or sack up and get through the trolling to understand the points getting made.

Only mainstream liberal views should be posted here. Everything else makes me uncomfortable.

The desire to censor views that one does not agree with is an authoritarian instinct.

Wally please look inside of yourself and do better.

Best

Well, TC relies on trolling or a pseudo-agnostic "mood affiliation" test hand wave in many of his posts.

Winnowing through huge volumes of trash to find underrated things is kind of Tyler's thing. God only knows how much sewage he ingests on Twitter.
I agree that this thread has been particularly awful. At one point I assumed MR was large enough to attract paid trolls but that was too hopeful. In my social circle there are plenty of real humans going insane on a pro bono basis.

Old: Your freedom to swing your arm ends at my nose.

New: Your freedom to have sympathy ends at my ear.

I think that was somewhat of a dark transition in American culture.

Sympathy is not a real virtue (it is neither pagan nor Christian), and in cases like yours, valorizing the expression of sympathy is little more than sanctimonious vanity employed as a political weapon.

The odd thing is that sympathy is not even uniquely human. Many social animals show it.

So why would anyone back themselves into the corner where they have to deny it, not just as a common part of human nature, but as a part of life itself?

Reading comprehension: I did not deny the existence of sympathy; I denied that sympathy is a virtue.

(The Scots like Adam Smith at least recognized the problem with it by adding an impartial spectator, while Rousseau denigrated the problem and promoted it to the rank of virtue precisely because it was found in arational brutes.)

One thing that is interesting is the way these protests have spread to other cities; there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason as to which cities have had protests and which have not, and of course even among cities with protests, some have been considerably more violent than others.

Perhaps there are epidemiological parallels to how protests spread versus how the virus spreads? I hope we get to see some papers on protest heterogeneity just as many people are studying COVID heterogeneity.

Preferably studies that are conducted by economists with high GRE scores.

I came here to see why a picture of mennonites drew 80+ comments.

Now, if they had brought guns and occupied the state house, that would have been newsworthy.

Actually Old Order Mennonites, not "Old" as someone posted earlier. No, they are not Amish.

And indeed there serious reports that a certain amount of the building damage in Minneapolis and Oakland was instigated by white supremacist provocateurs, although probably a minority of it.

I learned about the difference between Mennonites versus Amish the first time I saw an Amish family at the farmer's market that drove up in an $60,000 dualie pickup truck.

I know this is all developing, but is there a single piece of publicly verifiable evidence that white nationalists are responsible for committing any of this violence or destruction?

Or is it only a MSM editorialist's and certain City Mayors' unfalsifiable but satisfying theory?

But one could agree that there certainly are white anarchists that are travelling around to the next riot?

And I do give Jussie Smollett credit for the first American scamming Nigerians though with his false flag stunt though.

Go up and see sources I linked to above with interviews and reports.

I did see the link...did they actually catch anyone and name names or just post some random truck with right wing stickers that was parked as evidence as a vast right wing conspiracy; seems like an easily faked internet meme stuff.

The right supremacists are the easy "cop out" for their own internal problems.

Also curious to know how many police have internet ties to 3%ers, sport "right wing" tattoos, wear 'Grunt Style' clothing , etc..

OK, here is a another one from the local paper: https://www.startribune.com/as-crowds-swell-and-destruction-mounts-attention-turns-to-out-of-state-rioters/570897402/

Those aren't Amish. The Amish do not have any civic engagement at all and the Mennonites not much. Even the Brethren are pretty circumspect about that sort of thing.

I wondered about that and I see others here questioned too. I also doubted that Amish people sing. I looked that up and found that they do sing but usually don't play instruments. That would be worldly, a means of self-expression, a way to express superiority, etc.

I think the Amish are kidding themselves about the distinction they make between acapella singing and instruments. But who could want to deny them the pleasure they get from singing? And singing and religion go together in my own mind.

That is a good point. The great Anabaptist legacy is withdrawal and non-participation in government. Withdrawal and non-participation is the best example for the federal government at this time. Let the cities and their residents reap what they have sown. No calling out the guard. No bailouts. Turn off the subsidies. The city is a failed concept and the sooner they disintegrate and dissolve, the sooner human flourishing can begin.

Indeed, time to become a tax protester. By using no money, if by no other way.

Sympathy is a personal expression. It usually involves people giving their own money or time to help.

Virtue signalling among the Left is an effort by the Upper Middle Class to distinguish themselves from the huddled masses, by openly disrespecting everyone poorer than them - and pushing policies that will directly hurt the White working and lower-middle classes. It will cost them nothing.

That is why the Upper Middle class likes modern Art. It is not that they actually enjoy it or want to hang it on their walls. But they gain pleasure from the thought that the lower middle classes think it is garbage but they have to pay for it. Which it self-evidently is.

They are not taxed by the feds. There is no state-level funding of art museums.

I think justice is up to the courts. Although the media thinks it's up to them.

I can't be the only church-attending-Menno-until-COVID who reads this blog... but I'll try to make it quick:

Yes, old order mennos, not amish.

The headline is correct in spirit - things must be really messed up if these people are protesting. That is true. You can acknowledge this without getting bent out of shape, as they are unlikely to *riot*.

Gotta admit, it's just as galling as you'd expect to see your own group subjected to everyone's 3rd rate wikipedia summary and dismissal.

Old Order Mennos have a pre-enlightenment communitarian worldview so the they don't think about individual actions being right and wrong the same way you do... if something degrades the group, that's enough to be make it verboten so to speak. Cars aren't EVIL... cars degrade community and therefore aren't used. You are an individualist, you exist in an individualist worldview with individualist friends and this will be difficult for you to grasp.

Pre-enlightenment worldviews tend to be very comfortable with ascribing group characteristics or happenstance to individual morality... and conservative Amish/Mennos don't perceive positive things about the few representations of black people they see ... yes I'm calling them racist. So if they're protesting THINGS MUST BE REALLY MESSED UP.

Amish are a great thought experiment for the Rod Dreher type christian libertarians who fantasize about socially distancing from their liberal neighbors so they (their wives) can homeschool their children.

Four part a cappella underrated.

My girlfriends and I were daytripping a hundred miles up the interstate, to see the bones of the drowned mammoths and other extinct quadrupeds, and a small bridge built by a guy who built a larger and more famous bridge. A riverside park, an MLK memorial. I was to pick the lunch place. I told my husband the most popular eatery seemed to be a restaurant run by Mennonites. Or some such. He was sceptical: "Better hope they're Mexican Mennonites." No: but I knew at once upon entering their orderly Arcadian compound, everything homegrown, homemade, and handspun, and not a word of proselytizing, or so much as a sassy church sign ("We've got a big God in here, want to meet him?"), that these were no natives of my state. This place could only be the work of tireless Yankees - as it turned out a band of Godspell-era Christians who had picked up their ministry to the poor in NYC and moved West, embracing certain aspects of the Anabaptist tradition, whatever that was. Their website emphasized that they had nothing in common with another compound, ill-fated, that had sprung nearby around the same time.

My girlfriends loved the place, and the gift shop, but exchanged meaning looks over the women's dowdy shoes.

The genuine-article Mennonites, or at least the women and children, that I saw at the train station long ago - they had come down to help with rebuilding houses after a tornado - were barefoot.

It's "thou shalt" you uneducated nincompoop in the middle!

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