Identifying barriers to Muslim integration in France

by on November 17, 2015 at 2:24 pm in Current Affairs, Data Source, Economics, Political Science, Religion | Permalink

From an email from the Harvard Kennedy School:

“Identifying Barriers to Muslim Integration in France”
Adida, Claire L.; Laitin, David D.; Valfort, Marie-Anne. Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), 2010, Vol. 107, No. 52, doi: 10.1073/pnas.1015550107.

Abstract: “Is there a Muslim disadvantage in economic integration for second-generation immigrants to Europe? Previous research has failed to isolate the effect that religion may have on an immigrant family’s labor market opportunities because other factors, such as country of origin or race, confound the result. This paper uses a correspondence test in the French labor market to identify and measure this religious effect. The results confirm that in the French labor market, anti-Muslim discrimination exists: a Muslim candidate is 2.5 times less likely to receive a job interview callback than is his or her Christian counterpart. A high-n survey reveals, consistent with expectations from the correspondence test, that second-generation Muslim households in France have lower income compared with matched Christian households. The paper thereby contributes to both substantive debates on the Muslim experience in Europe and methodological debates on how to measure discrimination. Following the National Academy of Sciences’ 2001 recommendations on combining a variety of methodologies and applying them to real-world situations, this research identifies, measures, and infers consequences of discrimination based on religious affiliation, controlling for potentially confounding factors, such as race and country of origin.”

There are other interesting papers at the top link, many of them topical with regard to recent events.  This article, by the way, argues that 9-11 decreases the rate of Muslim assimilation in the United States.

1 dearieme November 17, 2015 at 2:35 pm

I remember an NZ friend telling me ruefully that he had a good Egyptian employee who, alas, he could not promote. Why? Because, although he was good at his job, he would probably be a disaster if promoted to management. The “probably” was based on experience: his attempt to explain it was probably a bit mealy-mouthed, but included the proposition that it’s hard to manage people if your culture is very different from theirs.

2 ad*m November 17, 2015 at 3:08 pm

Maybe something similar as what is at play in the Netherlands. I left the Netherlands because of muslim aggression, and so founded my company with now 20 employees here in the US instead of in the Netherlands.
So job creation happens where the muslims are either absent or well integrated.

3 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 3:15 pm

You left the Netherlands because of muslim agression??? hahahhahhaha …. MR commenters truly live in a parallel universe it seems…

4 mobile November 17, 2015 at 4:03 pm

Maybe ad*m runs an editorial cartoonist company.

5 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 4:04 pm

Or a film studio.

6 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 4:06 pm

Or lived in a lousy slum.

7 Gopchik November 18, 2015 at 10:42 am

A bar, a liquor store, book store, women’s clothing, kosher deli…

8 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 4:13 pm

Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh also live in a parallel universe, because they’re dead.

9 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 6:33 pm

You are right about Theo van Gogh, but Pim Fortuyn was not murdered by a muslim terrorist, if i remember correctly.

10 Jan November 17, 2015 at 6:38 pm

Just a couple regular guys, running businesses, couldn’t escape the ubiquitous Muslim aggression.

11 Peter Schaeffer November 17, 2015 at 7:17 pm

MK,

“You are right about Theo van Gogh, but Pim Fortuyn was not murdered by a muslim terrorist, if i remember correctly.”

Pim Fortuyn was killed by Volkert van der Graaf. Volkert van der Graaf objected to Pim Fortuyn’s opposition to mass immigration and radical Islam. Volkert van der Graaf is already out of prison.

12 ivvenalis November 17, 2015 at 10:09 pm

12 years in prison for the premeditated assassination of a major political figure? lol. Stay classy, Holland.

13 Jeff R. November 18, 2015 at 9:02 am

“Just a couple regular guys, running businesses, couldn’t escape the ubiquitous Muslim aggression. ”

Remind me what the death toll has reached on this latest series of terrorist attacks in Paris is. Has it hit 175?

14 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 9:45 am

Volkert van der Graaf objected to Pim Fortuyn’s opposition to mass immigration and radical Islam. Volkert van der Graaf is already out of prison. –

The next time some knucklehead says ‘mass incarceration’ or ‘we incarcerate more people than any western nation’, toss that little tidbit in his face.

15 Chip November 17, 2015 at 7:14 pm

I visited the Dutch town of Venlo with my German grandparents. When we retuned to the parking lot skme teens were sitting and lying on top of a car and an elderly man with shopping was repeatedly and humbly asking them to get off the car while they laughed and jeered.

Another trip in my grandparents home just outside Essen. An early morning shriek from the neighbor and I went outside. After she took out the garbage two young people followed her back inside her gate and to the door aggressively asking for money.

A couple years ago I was in Gothenburg for a kids soccer tournament. In a large outdoor park a group of young men cat called and whistled at 12 and 14 year old female players who walked by.

I don’t know if the original poster is legitimate but my personal experiences in many trips to Europe – and the crime data – is that there is at times a strong and discordant element of aggression at odds with local norms.

16 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 8:45 pm

Sure but compared to US, this is just peanuts…The things you describe could happen anywhere in the world anyway.

17 Anonymous coward November 18, 2015 at 2:34 am

No, not everywhere in the world (unimaginable in Japan, for example), it didn’t use to be the case in either Europe or the US within living memory and it’s not the case in the whitopias where UMC types live in their bubbles.

18 Tom November 18, 2015 at 6:17 am

Wherever Morono Klaus is in the world, these things may happen.

19 Brian November 18, 2015 at 11:46 am

I live in one of the most diverse places on the planet — Filipinos, Koreans, Bengalis, Thais, Ecuadorians, and many others all living side by side. It’s a mix of the entire middle class from doubled up apartment renters to owners of semi-detached houses.

It can hardly be called UMC whitetopia but there’s nothing like what Chip described.

20 Ed November 18, 2015 at 11:56 am

I notice you didn’t mention Russians. They are habitual criminals and turn a neighborhood to shit.

21 Slocum November 18, 2015 at 12:40 pm

“Sure but compared to US, this is just peanuts…”

Actually, that’s not true. Muslims immigrants are generally much better integrated and financially successful in the U.S. than in Europe. The only example that comes to mind of anything like a poor Muslim ‘problem’ population in the U.S. are the Somalis immigrants in Minneapolis. But in general, there are no Muslim immigrant ghettos in the U.S. They aren’t poorer and don’t commit a disproportionate number of crimes.

22 Lord Action November 18, 2015 at 1:13 pm

My impression of the Netherlands comes from the 20-40 year old American business set. Guys like it, women hate it. They don’t feel safe, although truthfully I’ve never heard anyone call out the muslim presence. It’s also a pain to get around.

23 Harun November 17, 2015 at 7:18 pm

I bet if he’d told you he was from Alabama and was gay and moved to SF to start his business because he felt threatened in Alabama, you’d totally agree with him.

24 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 8:47 pm

Well, i would agree with anybody moving out of Alabama, independently of his race, religion or sexual preference 🙂 🙂 🙂

25 Tom November 18, 2015 at 6:19 am

Ah yes, Morono Klaus, the self-hating westerner. Or maybe it’s just a puppet for something else.

26 J1 November 18, 2015 at 2:29 pm

Depends on what you’re after; Alabama has much nicer beaches.

27 freethinker November 17, 2015 at 11:28 pm

Ask your NZ friend how Indira Nooyi, Sunder Pitchai and Satya Nadella could become CEOs of giant American firms though they are from a different … i.e. Indian … culture

28 dearieme November 18, 2015 at 9:04 am

What bearing would that have on promoting a foreign moslem to be in charge of a group of NZ skilled craftsmen? Especially since my friend had run into the problem twice before, and checking with friends in the trade he’d found a few others with similar experiences.

29 ddd December 2, 2015 at 10:47 am

As a New Zealander, I wouldn’t rule out the real problem being the New Zealanders.

New Zealand culture is extremely ‘coded’. We have all the British paranoia and social complexity, but without an explicit class system to give it an obvious structure. It’s extremely easy for a cultural outsider to simply push the wrong buttons, which makes us extremely uncomfortable and confused.

My European wife had an awful time interacting with my family because they interpreted her every second action as a slight.

30 Peter Schaeffer November 18, 2015 at 12:55 pm

freethinker,

I have read that in the UK, Hindu immigrants tend to be successful (including their children) and Muslim immigrants are not (including their children). Given that both are non-white it is unlikely that ordinary racial prejudice plays a role in the delta. The reasons for the delta (if it is real), are unclear. Founder effects come to mind (immigrant Hindu engineers vs. immigrant Muslim blue-collar workers). However, religion may also play a role. Would a Hindu girl feel constrained to abandon any career goals and marry a cousin? Is their a real behavior difference attributable solely to religion (controlling for prior education, wealth, etc.). It is clear that a low-income girl growing up in a Muslim immigrant neighborhood faces all sorts of pressures that are not conducive to success. In different ways, so does a low-income boy.

Steve Sailer published a letter he received from a Muslim girl in the UK (IIRC) about how she was being pressured into an unwanted marriage (to a cousin IIRC). Sadlly typical. Would that happen (be as likely) to a Hindu girl? What are the consequences for societal success? If anyone can find the link (to the letter), please post it.

31 Millian November 17, 2015 at 2:42 pm

The abstract speaks to the Muslim experience in Europe, but the data cited only come from France. One may as well say the paper describes the Muslim experience in Eurasia or the world. I would rather be a British Muslim than a French one and the life outcomes will be very different.

32 Arjun November 17, 2015 at 2:47 pm

>The abstract speaks to the Muslim experience in Europe, but the data cited only come from France.

This is probably why the title of the paper, and the title of the post, specified the paper as being specific to French Muslims.

33 Millian November 17, 2015 at 2:59 pm

Nice try, but no. The abstract alludes to “Muslim disadvantage … for second-generation immigrants to Europe” and, tellingly, “the Muslim experience in Europe”, as if there were one and this described it. It would be like talking about the Muslim experience in Asia with reference to just Iran or just Japan. So, no.

34 Potential Liberal Sockpuppet November 17, 2015 at 3:04 pm

Is this the new talking point? That France brought this on itself by treating Muslims badly?

Is there a mailing list I should be on to get this material? I feel so left out…

35 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 3:12 pm

uuuh, nobody said that…

36 Horhe November 17, 2015 at 3:27 pm

It’s battered wife syndrome… you have to have a dialogue, do some soul searching, be more tolerant, retreat more and more from the public spaces with the native culture and religions, accommodate them more etc. then maybe you’ll fulfill an arbitrary standard and there won’t be anymore no-go areas for police with sullen and aggressive youngsters. If it happens again, it’s because all these nativist wreckers keep ruining it for the rest of you who are good progressives and multiculturalists. It’s why Communist societies never got to that fabled endpoint of plenty and harmony – the class enemy, the bourgeois and the kulak, kept lurking in the shadows ruining it for decent folk.

37 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 4:02 pm

You’ll notice that the talking points invariably lead to the following:

1. An argument that enhances the status of the talker vis a vis the generic Frenchman.

2. An argument made for more employment of the sort of people in the talker’s social circle (e.g. lawyers).

38 The Original D November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm

It asks the question “Is there a Muslim disadvantage in economic integration for second-generation immigrants to Europe?”

Then it focuses on data from France, and uses France in the title. Are you worried that people don’t have your incredibly honed reading skills?

39 Millian November 17, 2015 at 4:03 pm

You must not be involved in academia. My point is not that they will deceive people, but rather that they are stretching to make their paper sound more relevant and discussable than it is.

40 Arjun November 17, 2015 at 4:51 pm

I’m no academic, but seems to me like its reasonable to identify a question about Europe as an introductory statement to justify looking at data from a specific European country.

41 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 2:56 pm

I think that was the point of the first reference, that France might have special problems.

I know that British and Swedish TV try to grapple with integration, but also show successful role models. Does France as well? I don’t know, I see less French TV.

42 Axa November 18, 2015 at 5:44 am

This is an interesting question. In the US there’s Univision for Hispanics, but there’ nothing similar in France in spite 10% of population speaks Arabic. Univision has not the most enlightened agenda, it promotes values that correspond to XIX century…..but it’s the relief valve for many people and makes them feel part of the US. Of course, there are not great ideals behind Univision, it’s just about selling goods to Spanish speaking consumers.

Perhaps the “business first” culture in the US is better to prevent conflict among people with diverse backgrounds than the Napoleonic approach to “everybody must speak French”. Perhaps peace is soap operas and reality TV shows in Arabic.

43 Tom November 18, 2015 at 6:28 am

I believe “integration” is now an obsolete term, displaced by “multiculturalism”. The most interesting part of Swedish media is when the Bonniers group get into a fight with the Palestinian sympathizers at SVT (Govt TV). Wait a second, who are these strange looking people caterwauling about whatever in the Middle East? What does that have to do with us?

The immigrants prefer to point their satellite dishes in entirely other directions; that’s probably the case in France as well.

44 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 2:52 pm

I probably would have been more comfortable around the guy who wore a thawb to our California office, and who requested a place for prayer, without 9/11.

I would say both of these illustrate hard realities, but we are fortunate that we have sufficient diversity to support more. Immigrants from from all over fast track to wealth and the good neighborhoods.

45 Cliff November 17, 2015 at 9:50 pm

“Immigrants from from all over fast track to wealth and the good neighborhoods.”

What?

46 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 2:56 pm

1. What’s a ‘matched’ household?

2. Cannot help they give not hint in the abstract of considering the proposition that when the table of contents to your labor code is 80 pages long and private sector employees have protections against dischage akin to civil servants in other countries, maybe employers might just be somewhat risk averse. (Which does incorporate the notion that there are pitfalls which apply in the hiring of Muslims which do not apply in the hiring of ordinary Frenchmen. Molly Ivins can’t say that, can she?).

3. A note on terminology. In a country where a grand total of 3% of the population shows up for Mass on a given Sunday, speaking of “Christian” French is rather arch.

4. Wagers the ineluctable conclusion is to double-down on employment discrimination law. Am I right?

5. Is anyone who can get a paper published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences at all interested in the call back rate of various cultural dispensations seeking faculty positions? Or is that just declasse?

47 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 3:05 pm

#3 Does not make sense anymore… We are in 2015, not in 1956, remember? I never went to a Mass in my whole life, and i call my self a christian (though not belonging to any church).

48 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 3:10 pm

#1 That’s a good point, if the matching is not good then the whole paper is worthless. I think they are comparing muslim vs non-muslim immigrants from the same country, which sounds reasonable…

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50 Anonymous coward November 18, 2015 at 2:39 am

You can call yourself a pink unicorn or a woman, that doesn’t make you one. Oh, wait, shi

51 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 4:15 am

It’s the current year, for Chrissakes! Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

52 Peter Schaeffer November 17, 2015 at 7:06 pm

AD,

The problem with all studies like this is omitted-variable bias. The authors (and apparently TC) believe that a differential resume response rate reflects French hostility towards immigrants. However, the omitted variable is obviously immigrant hostility towards the (non-immigrant) French.

To use a U.S. analogy, there have been numerous allegations of taxi-driver bias against black customers. There is evidence supporting these allegations. However, there is also evidence that black taxi-drivers behave the same way non-black taxi drivers. Are black taxi drivers racist? Against other blacks?

Or are we really seeing omitted variable bias? Here is (unintentionally) funny quote from Cornel West on the subject.

“This September my wife, Elleni, and I made our biweekly trek to New York City from Princeton … I left my car—a rather elegant one—in a safe parking lot and stood on the corner of 60th Street and Park Avenue to catch a taxi. I felt quite relaxed since I had an hour until my next engagement. At 5:00 p.m. I had to meet a photographer … in East Harlem … I waited and waited and waited. After the ninth taxi refused me, my blood began to boil … Needless to say these incidents are dwarfed by those like Rodney King’s beating or the abuse of black targets of the FBI’s COINTELPRO effort in the 1960s and 1970s. Yet the memories cut like a merciless knife at my soul as I waited on that gadforsaken corner.”

Why exactly did Cornel West need to leave his car in a “safe parking lot”? What exactly is a “safe parking lot”? Is OK for Cornel West to worry about the safety of his car, but it’s racist for a black taxi driver to have the same thoughts? Is Cornel West a practicing anti-black racist?

By the way, none of the above is original. It is from “The Race Card: How Bluffing About Bias Makes Race Relations Worse” (author Richard Thompson Ford)

The bottom line is that a study showing a differential resume response rate tells us very little about discrimination in France. It could be entirely a consequence of immigrant (second generation) hostility towards the French. It could be entirely a consequence of French hostility towards second-generation immigrants. It could be a combination.

A useful note is that it is widely recognized that Asian immigrants are quite successful in France (and elsewhere). This calls into question any model based on simple racism.

53 Meets November 17, 2015 at 8:07 pm

+1

54 Nathan W November 18, 2015 at 1:25 am

Interesting question, but if what you suggest is true, it hardly means that there’s less of a problem.

55 Piper November 18, 2015 at 1:49 am

They didn’t control for IQ, either, which is critical and well-known to be depressed in French (N. Africa/Middle E.) Muslims due to inbreeding.

56 GC November 18, 2015 at 11:59 am

As demonstrated in… what studies again? or is it personal experience as a member of the study group?

57 Peter Schaeffer November 18, 2015 at 4:23 pm

From a post below.

dux.ie November 17, 2015 at 8:30 pm

There is another angle to be considered. The second gen immigrants are born locally and many such as the paper cited used the equality of outcomes as the benchmark for comparison whereas it should be the equality of opportunities depending on ability. Although religion could have some effects, the ability gap is much more relevant for the general population. The religion effect cannot equally explains the extra radicalization in Belgium. The second gen immigrants in Belgium are performing even worse than that for the first gen. There is little doubt that Belgium produces the most radical second gen immigrants as it is the place where the gap is the highest and the competition is the strongest, i.e. from the OECD PISA scores converted to equivalent IQ scores,

IQ2ndGenImm-IQnative,Country,IQ1stGenImm,IQ2ndGenImm,IQnative

-11.875 Belgium 89.375 86.71875 98.59375

-10.46875 Denmark 84.53125 86.40625 96.875

-10.46875 Netherlands 87.03125 88.59375 99.0625

-8.28125 France 85.78125 90.78125 99.0625

-7.65625 England 96.875 92.34375 100.0

-7.34375 Austria 89.21875 90.9375 98.28125

-6.5625 Norway 87.96875 91.25 97.8125

-6.40625 Portugal 92.5 90.0 96.40625

-6.25 Germany 90.625 92.5 98.75

-5.625 Sweden 83.4375 90.3125 95.9375

-3.90625 Spain 87.03125 89.84375 93.75

-3.59375 Italy 88.75 95.3125 98.90625

-1.71875 UnitedStates 94.375 96.875 98.59375

It is interesting to note that the above ranking roughly corresponds to that for the Per Capita Foreign Fighter Statistics http://qz.com/551371/brussels-where-e500-buys-a-gun-in-30-minutes-has-become-europes-jihadi-capital/

58 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 10:10 am

I do not neglect that point. What interests me is the purported 2.5 fold differential in call-back interviews. I’d really like to see the raw data there. It seems like they must be using a misleading frame or to have seriously bollixed something.

Actually, I think Dr. West has a point, if he’s telling the truth. The man’s past 60 and something of a dandy. Actuarial calculations do not explain why cabbies are ignoring him.

59 TallDave November 18, 2015 at 5:32 pm

They’re worried about where they’ll be asked to take them.

Comcast was just pilloried nearby here for rescheduling appointments after a spate of shootings that caused police to warn them the area was unsafe.

60 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 10:21 pm

They’re worried about where they’ll be asked to take them.

Pre-deBlasio, the only community districts in New York with a homicide rate higher than the city-wide mean in Rochester and Buffalo were Bedford-Stuyvesant and Ocean Hill Brownsville. Morrisania is shabby, not murderous.

61 Dmitri Helios November 17, 2015 at 2:56 pm

I predict 250+ comments.

62 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 3:00 pm

Our identifying assumption in (1), therefore, is that hate crimes against Muslims at the state level are not correlated with omitted variables that affect the local assimilation rate and that changes in Muslim hate crimes at the state level are not caused by changes in the assimilation rate within the state (i.e. no reverse causality).

Whatever.

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64 Dan Weber November 17, 2015 at 7:53 pm

Settle down, Ray Lopez!

65 Ethan Bernard November 18, 2015 at 12:16 pm

🙂

66 Arjun November 17, 2015 at 3:02 pm

I’d highly recommend this Foreign Affairs article (possible paywall) on the failure of “multiculturalism” in Europe–where “multiculturalism” refers to the specifically bizarre and racist policies that European states have created to address people of Middle Eastern, Asian, and African descent. This section on France is relevant:

>Instead of accepting North Africans as full citizens, French policy has tended to ignore the racism and discrimination they have faced. Many in France view its citizens of North African origin not as French but as Arab or Muslim. But second-generation North Africans are often as estranged from their parents’ culture and mores—and from mainstream Islam—as they are from wider French society. They are caught not between two cultures, as it is often claimed, but without one. As a consequence, some of them have turned to Islamism, and a few have expressed their inchoate rage through jihadist violence.

>At the same time, French assimilationist policies have exacerbated the sense of disengagement felt by traditional working-class communities. The social geographer Christophe Guilluy has coined the phrase “the peripheral France” to describe those people “pushed out by the deindustrialization and gentrification of the urban centers,” who “live away from the economic and decision-making centers, in a state of social non-integration,” and have thus come to “feel excluded.” The peripheral France has emerged mainly as a result of economic and political developments.

67 Nodnarb the Nasty November 17, 2015 at 3:20 pm

That Keenan Malik article you mention is great, thanks.

Here’s another one from a French sociologist now living in the US: http://libertyunbound.com/node/1365. It’s longer and denser than the Malik piece, but still very good.

68 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 4:00 pm

Instead of accepting North Africans as full citizens, French policy has tended to ignore the racism and discrimination they have faced.

There is no need for French policy to pay attention to people’s miscellaneous problems in living. There is a need for French policy to remove the institutional impediments to labor market transactions and landlord-tenant transactions.

69 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 4:19 pm

The Foreign Affairs article was good, and illustrates how words like multiculturalism can have a lot of meanings.

I would have thought it meant California, with one law and a firmament of cultures.

70 Dan in Euroland November 17, 2015 at 3:23 pm

What is interesting is how regulations in European labor markets interact with their immigration policies. Euro labour markets have all kinds of frictions such as insider-outsider dynamics. So having a policy of large scale immigration without easing labour market regulations will only increase the rate of radicalism. As JP Carvalho & Christine Binzel [1] document, much of the Islamic revival in the ME can be attributed to falling economic expectations. If migrants move to Europe believing they will have better economic opportunities, but then European labor laws prevent these expectations from coming to fruition, increased radicalization is the result.

Open borders and high labour market regulations are a terrible combination.

Its hard not to think that the European Left doesn’t understand this dynamic. As I like to say, the goal of liberals is to create a permanent underclass through which they can perpetuate their power. Clientalism and dependency are the paths to power.

[1] http://faculty.sites.uci.edu/jpcarv/files/2011/03/Islamic-Revival_rs1.pdf

71 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 3:53 pm

In some ways Europe’s immigration problem is the opposite of America’s.
In the US, the problem is cheap hispanic laborers outcompeting American-born labor, leading to a lot of domestic labor opposition and high barriers to immigration (closed borders, low labor market regulation = lots of illegal immigration). In Europe the immigrants can get there easily, but are then prevented from being employed (open borders, high labor market regulation = lots of unemployed disenfranchised immigrants on welfare).

72 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 9:10 pm

This is not true Hazel. It is quite difficult to emigrate nowadays to Europe at least in a legal way, there is no such thing as open borders except if you already live in European Union space. Of course the “Syrian” problem is an exception to this. I think what you mean is that there is a problem with 2nd generation immigrants… not really with 1st generation except if they are refugees from Somalia or smth like that.

73 Peter Lund November 18, 2015 at 5:30 pm

Family unification is usually ridiculously easy. There are also various greencard-like things and student visas.

74 Peter Schaeffer November 17, 2015 at 7:33 pm

DIE,

“Open borders and high labour market regulations are a terrible combination”

How about Open Borders, high labor market regulations, and the welfare state?

75 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 9:11 pm

Which Open borders? Without war on Syria, EU wouldnt be taking 1 million + refugees…

76 Peter Schaeffer November 17, 2015 at 11:34 pm

MK,

Please, cut out the “refugees” nonsense. They were refugees when they left Syria (if they are actually from Syria) for Turkey. When they left Turkey for Greece they became economic migrants (at best) or welfare shoppers (in all too many cases). From Tony Abbott.

“In Europe, as with Australia, people claiming asylum – invariably – have crossed not one border but many; and are no longer fleeing in fear but are contracting in hope with people smugglers. However desperate, almost by definition, they are economic migrants because they had already escaped persecution when they decided to move again.

Our moral obligation is to receive people fleeing for their lives. It’s not to provide permanent residency to anyone and everyone who would rather live in a prosperous Western country than their own. That’s why the countries of Europe, while absolutely obliged to support the countries neighbouring the Syrian conflict, are more than entitled to control their borders against those who are no longer fleeing a conflict but seeking a better life.

This means turning boats around, for people coming by sea. It means denying entry at the border, for people with no legal right to come; and it means establishing camps for people who currently have nowhere to go.”

77 Nathan W November 18, 2015 at 1:31 am

They are real refugees.

78 Beetlebum November 18, 2015 at 3:09 am

They are only refugees in Turkey, Libanon…

After that they are economic migrants.

79 Tom November 18, 2015 at 6:54 am

Not to mention the many who aren’t even Syrian. Personally, I think the whole send in the Syrians thing has gone on far too long.

But no matter, as Emma Lazarus might have written: “Give us your strong young men, your cowards fleeing legal punishments and war, your huddled muslim masses with smart phones yearning for welfare and complaints. The wretched refuse to be sent as a beach head. Send these, the thieves and hustlers and trouble makers, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! And I mean golden. G.O.L.D.E.N. PS. Don’t go to Israel.”

80 Skeptic November 17, 2015 at 3:24 pm

Why are we even *considering * taking Syrians? It’s nuts. Let them stay in Turkey. Inbred and aggressive–no f’ing thanks.

81 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 3:46 pm

Maybe because the Syrian mess is partly our fault. Maybe because our allies (with our cumplicity?) are supporting terrorist organizations, which are making impossible for anyone, who is sane, to live there.

82 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 3:55 pm

Maybe because the Syrian mess is partly our fault.

No, it is not. The Syrian mess is the fault of Syrians. We merely finance the refugee camps.

83 Arjun November 17, 2015 at 4:15 pm

American political and military elites have been interested in undermining Syria since the mid-2000s, and have taken part in covert actions with the military/intelligence agencies of the authoritarian Gulf States in order to bolster militant Sunni groups operating in Syria and Lebanon. You can read about this in this article from New Yorker from way back in 2007.

Then, when the civil war broke out, what originated as a relatively secular and pro-democratic movement was quickly hijacked by fundamentalist jihadis funded by Gulf State elites, again with American complicity. The CIA has been playing a key role in funding weapons to the Gulf State’s preferred proxies (which are typically sectarian Islamist groups), to the tune of nearly $1 billion/year.

And all of this is completely separate from the fact that ISIS/Daesh has direct roots in the criminally catastrophic US invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I like the fact that the US is now teaming up with Kurdish leftists; but regardless, it is pretty clear that the US government has blood on its hands when it comes to Syria.

84 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 4:25 pm

American political and military elites have been interested in undermining Syria since the mid-2000s,

“Interested”. How dreadful. And that does what?

Then, when the civil war broke out, what originated as a relatively secular and pro-democratic movement was quickly hijacked by fundamentalist jihadis funded by Gulf State elites, again with American complicity. The CIA has been playing a key role in funding weapons to the Gulf State’s preferred proxies (which are typically sectarian Islamist groups), –

In your over active imagination. I have news for you Arjun. There has never been a ‘pro-democratic’ insurgency in the Arab world. There have been patron-client formations congenial to electoral institutions, but never a ‘pro-democratic insurgency’. The Algerian insurgency had some patsies like Ferhat Abbas as front men. That’s it. There haven’t been any vigorous ‘secular movements’ of any kind appearing on the scene in the Arab world for nearly 50 years. The closest you come to that would be some of the communal militias in Lebanon (whose loyalties are demarcated by confession though not, perhaps, theological points). Even in Tunisia the Islamist parties managed to cadge 40% of the vote.

You’ve got three choices in the Arab world: patronage distributors, Islamists, and a concatenation of fascistoids of a praetoreanist or Ba’athist or Marxist bent. There is seldom a fourth choice, anywhere.

85 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 4:36 pm

This reminds me of when people said the Iranian Revolution was because we supported the Shah.

86 Arjun November 17, 2015 at 5:34 pm

@ Mrs. Deco

>“Interested”. How dreadful. And that does what?

Are you really going to just ignore the rest of that sentence, and pretend like I didn’t link a lengthy article on American support for covert operations in Syria and Lebanon?

>There has never been a ‘pro-democratic’ insurgency in the Arab world.

I’m not just talking about insurgencies here. The protest movement in Syria was lead by a resurgent civil society demanding representative democracy, and when violence broke out this core was at first the dominant organizational body coordinating the rebellion; it was only after the original deterioration in security that jihadis funded by the Gulf State elite (with American support) started entering the country and arming radical Islamists. There is nothing to imagine here, this has been widely reported on by mainstream newspapers. It is literally the exact same pattern that took place during the American-backed insurgency against the Soviets when they were occupying Afghanistan in the ’80s (albeit with Pakistan playing a major role, instead of Turkey).

87 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 5:46 pm

Arjun — Apparently you aren’t aware that the US supported the small number of secular, pro-democracy Syrians, who were promptly slaughtered by the Islamists, who then stole much of the US aid.

The US invaded Iraq in 1991 because the whole world begged us to after he invaded Kuwait, then foolishly left Saddam in power. That turned out not to work so well, as it required us to bomb Iraq on a daily or weekly basis forever, and patrol the Shia and Kurdish areas to prevent all-out massacres, so in 2003 we finally removed Saddam, which probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives given the average death rate of the Saddam era and what’s now happening in Syria. Then Obama decided we didn’t need a status of forces agreement with Iraq and that ISIS is just the JV team, and now they’re shooting up every place from Chattanooga to Paris.

No matter what happens the US is going to be blamed, it’s a shame we didn’t just leave the region to its own miseries in 1991.

88 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 6:08 pm

The protest movement in Syria was lead by a resurgent civil society demanding representative democracy,

Yeah, just like the Google guy in Egypt. How’d that work out?

Look at actual election results in the Arab world in the last 40 years. Replication of occidental political fissures is unusual and has little constituency. You’ve got the grandees and their favor banks, the Islamists, and some red-brown coalition. Given the 1st opportunity to vote in a competitive election in nearly 60 years, Egypt’s electorate opted for the Muslim Brotherhood; the Wafd Party got 9% of the vote. In Algeria in 1991/92, given the first opportunity in more than four decades, the Islamic Salvation Front swept the board; the closest thing to a democratic party was a Berber minority list. Given the first opportunity in nearly 50 years, the Arab voters on the West Bank and Gaza divided their support between Islamists and a collection of mafiosi (with a red-brown coalition taking most of the remainder). This notion that there was some sort of incipient Velvet Revolution in Syria is a fantasy.

89 TallDave November 18, 2015 at 2:43 pm

E Harding — That was my point.

The worst violence of the occupation (which, remember, was basically an effort to allow the sane Iraqis to vote and otherwise have a modicum of representative government despite the lunatics in their midst) was still lower than the average death toll of the Saddam regime — even allowing for the fact the US was suppressing the worst violence for 13 years under the no-fly zones. Additionally, by 2012 the GDP of Iraq had quintupled from 2002 levels. The number of people with cell phones grew by 100 times. The number of people driving increased by around 3x, schools, electricity, potable water, sewage treatment all greatly expanded. People tend to forget Iraq was a Stalinist nightmare, basically North Korea with oil and Islam.

90 Nathan W November 18, 2015 at 1:32 am

America and allies can do no wrong, even when they do.

91 Jeff R. November 17, 2015 at 4:03 pm

Who’s this “our?” Aren’t you German?

92 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 6:36 pm

I am not German. By ours i mean the west and not only the US.

93 Brian Donohue November 17, 2015 at 4:20 pm

So…invade the world, invite the world?

Sounds like a plan.

94 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 5:14 pm

Sounds like a Steve Sailer aphorism which is clever but false. We invaded not ‘the world’ but Iraq and Afghanistan. We’d been in a state of belligerency with one for twelve years and facing a trilemma about how to proceed regarding it, a trilemma that was not going to go away no matter how many goofy or repellant remarks were made by alt-right opinion journalists. With the latter there was a casus belli with some astonishing properties. We also never invited the world. We invited the first and second degree relatives of recent immigrants. As for the third leg, “in hock to the world”, we had a public sector surplus in 1999. The borrowing was being undertaken by private parties that foreigners wanted to lend to.

95 Steve Sailer November 17, 2015 at 8:49 pm

Got under your skin, huh?

That’s what a good phrase does.

96 Peter Schaeffer November 17, 2015 at 11:37 pm

AD,

The “in debt to the world” part is my line, not Steve Sailer’s.

97 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 9:57 am

Nope. The Sailer trifecta was ‘Invade the World, Invite the World, In Hock to the World’. Sometimes he leaves the third leg off.

98 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 9:58 am

Art Deco, do you understand how metaphors work?

Salier’s phrase is an aphorism, not a metaphor.

99 joe November 18, 2015 at 6:57 pm

You’ll have to excuse him, he’s got an IQ of 95.

100 The Anti-Gnostic November 18, 2015 at 10:31 am

At this point, I’m favoring the punchier, “We must fight them over there so we can fight them over here!”

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102 The Original D November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm

Ray, is that you?

103 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 3:46 pm

Private discrimination is how cultures maintain their integrity without violating other’s rights.
Nobody has a right to a job. If Muslim immigrants can’t get them, they should reconsider immigrating.
If local employers wish to hire Muslims, if local landlords wish to rent to Muslims, nobody should be permitted to stop them. But conversely, if the French people don’t want to hire or rent to Muslim immigrants they should not be forced to hire and rent to Muslim immigrants.
(Same goes for Mexicans in the US, though those don’t seem to have a problem getting jobs).

104 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 3:49 pm

If it were that simple…. most of these people have French nationality. So what do you do then?

105 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 3:56 pm

Why does nationality have anything to do with it? You could have a one world government with no nationalities and total open borders globally, and people would sitll have the right to privately discriminate.

106 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 3:57 pm

It’s called freedom of contract and freedom of association. No need for the state to ‘do’ anything. People can and do make passable arrangements on their own.

The French labor market is already hideously over regulated and the country is Europe’s most welfare slathered. Not working out for them.

107 derek November 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm

You remove policies that end up with high youth unemployment. You create a vibrant economy that has a demand for workers, and anyone no matter what gets hired.

If the employment market is tight, jobs hard to find, any reason at all to not hire someone is good enough. There will be far more applicants than available positions so you choose what you think works best.

That same thing could explain the post 9/11 findings. The jobless recovery and the diminishing job prospects hurt most those like Muslims, young inexperienced people, 50+ white guys.

108 Horhe November 17, 2015 at 6:20 pm

Is that all? That’s easier said than done. Besides, there is also an ethical conundrum – why should economic growth be channeled into new job creation for endless foreign immigrants, when it could just as well stimulate automation and other productivity gains, resulting in higher salaries and better jobs for the existing, limited pool of potential employees? Labor scarcity is a very undervalued phenomenon these days, possibly because few nations are faced with it.

109 derek November 17, 2015 at 7:00 pm

Does France have economic growth channelled into productivity gains, automation resulting in higher wages?

110 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 2:06 pm

@Derek: The question is self-answering. Given immigration to France, what little growth the French are producing goes into mostly marginal jobs for newcomers, subsidized by the state.

111 Harun November 17, 2015 at 6:58 pm

They can migrate to another country.

112 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 4:14 pm

Cultural integrity?

How the heck did you get the vote Hazel?

Would the answer be continuous cultural change?

113 Horhe November 17, 2015 at 6:24 pm

Well, cultures constantly evolve on their own, and there is little one can do about it. The point here is whether a culture has the right to maintain itself at the contact point with another culture, that might overwhelm it. I doubt we borrowed the suffragette movement from the Middle East, so it was an indigenous development, for good or ill. The opportunity to develop one’s own culture on its own, to the extent that this is possible, should be a basic right. I can see parallels with environmentalism and the ethics of opposing the introduction of invasive species. Environments evolve, the point is how much of the change is legitimate if it is driven by outside influences that were never …. invited in. Western media might fall under this, or it might not.

114 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 7:02 pm

It is a complete fiction that “a culture has a right.” As if a culture was a critter, like an elephant.

Every group from nation down to village has a tug of war between would-be culture leaders. No one speaks for the whole, especially at the national level.

What you are really saying is those xenophobes who have a particularly closed vision of what their culture should be should decide.

Too bad my California culture is something else, right?

115 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 10:10 pm

So, then I guess you have no objection to the British invading India and making them speak English, or Canadians forcing Native Americans to attend Catholic schools?

Or is “cultural imperialism” something that only white Europeans do to brown people?

116 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 10:14 pm

What you are really saying is those xenophobes who have a particularly closed vision of what their culture should be should decide.

No. I said *private* discrimination. I didn’t say that xenophobes get to vote to ban people from renting apartments to Muslims.
If enough members of culture A privately discriminate so as not to hire or rent to member of culture B, then culture A will tend not to be influenced by culture B. This will happen purely because members of culture A choose not to associate with culture B.

117 Kris November 18, 2015 at 3:56 am

@Hazel Meade:

So, then I guess you have no objection to the British invading India and making them speak English

You do know that happened, right? For real, back in the 18th and 19th centuries?

118 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 4:29 am

Ok, cultures don’t have rights. The people within the culture, then. Of course, cultures with few people (fewer issues with cultural leaders) are at risk of being swamped, and cultures with too many tend to fragment in time without some centralizing force. Your idea of there not being anyone to speak for the whole is irrelevant, so long as people recognize each other as being kith and kin and this shared bond elicits feelings of loyalty to the country, collective etc. Your argument on xenophobes trying to keep things the way they were (you can also have traditionalism without the xenophobia, because you oppose the ideas of people who are like you) is not on the mark. The culture changes almost inevitably. Successful conservatism is a force for picking and choosing where to concentrate resources to maintain a certain important facet of the culture, kind of like nature conservation, in the face of inevitable change.

And your California has seen huge changes to its communities in the past few decades and its culture, because of immigration.

119 Kris November 18, 2015 at 7:19 am

@Horhe:

And your California has seen huge changes to its communities in the past few decades and its culture, because of immigration.

Are all these changes bad? Is California a terrible place to live in because of those changes?

120 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 10:19 am

@Kris:

I don’t know, I’ve never been there, but the proper question is not whether California is such a terrible place, though I’ve been to places that California is said to now resemble in parts and I have not liked them much. It obviously isn’t a terrible place, compared to the world average. And it is probably an amazing place, if you’re rolling in cash and want a certain lifestyle.

The question is whether California is a better place than it used to be before going through vibrantization. Maybe somebody can answer that? I’ve read about the areas that are like Mexico in appearance and social capital, of the reliance on stoop labor as opposed to automation, of the demographic transitions that destroyed community capital (did you know George HW Bush lived in Compton of NRA fame when he had Dubya?) and of the various pressures on social systems, institutions, aging infrastructure, amenities that a fast growing population weighted to the lower end of the skills, income and trust spectrum has entailed. The nostalgiamongers would have you believe that, back in the day, California was a place with good jobs, cheap real estate and a very good promise at a better life for the Average Joe. That’s certainly changed. Not even the environment has escaped unscathed.

Going just by this piece, on two sisters from Mexico, one staying in Los Angeles and the other going to Kentucky, Kentucky is a better place for immigrants now http://www.vdare.com/articles/la-times-quinones-prints-the-truth-about-immigration

“This is not surprising since, as Edwin S. Rubenstein has reported in VDARE.com: “A new study by the United Way of Los Angeles finds that 53 percent of the city`s adult population—3.8 million people—are functionally illiterate.” The reporter also brings up the kind of facts usually glossed over in the LAT—such as how uneducated illegal immigrants tend to be. “She grew up in Los Positos, in the central Mexican state of Jalisco, the eldest of 10… Angela and [her sister] Justina left school at fifth grade to work in fields and tortilla shops to help support their family.” Quinones also sketches the more successful story of Mrs. Magdaleno`s nine (!) immigrant siblings: “Magdaleno`s existence contrasts sharply with that of her younger siblings, who followed her to Los Angeles but then left. They have settled in Lexington, Ky., had no more than two children each and built better lives than they had known before. Four bought houses. Their children speak English fluently…” Of course, the ten children of the least assimilated sibling will make up a sizable fraction of the clan`s next generation. The Magdalenos display an exaggerated version of a widely seen pattern—the more likely someone is to give their children a poor start in life, the more kids they are likely to have. “Her sister Alejandra was the first to leave. In Los Angeles, she and her husband were barely able to make ends meet. As in Mexico, `there was little work and it`s poorly paid,` she said. “Eight years ago, she and her family moved to Kentucky, where a friend said there was more work and were fewer Mexican immigrants bidding down the wages for unskilled jobs.` “They went to night school to learn English because few people in Lexington speak Spanish.

“Today, the Magdalenos in Lexington earn more than they did in Los Angeles, in a city where the cost of living is lower [only 65% of LA]. Kentucky is now their promised land, and they talk about California the way they used to talk about Mexico…”`What we weren`t able to do in many years in California,` Alejandra said, `we`ve done quickly here. We`re in a state where there`s nothing but Americans. The police control the streets. It`s clean, no gangs. California now resembles Mexico—everyone thinks like in Mexico. California`s broken.`”

It`s The Beverly Hillbillies in reverse. Now people are moving from California to Kentucky to be part of a more advanced civilization. More details from Quinones: “Justina was the last to leave Los Angeles, about the time Angela was pregnant with the triplets. “She and her husband wanted better schools for their sons, 15 and 9. “In Lexington, she said, `at the school there are just people who speak English. It`s helped my children a lot.`” “

121 Hazel Meade November 18, 2015 at 12:39 pm

Anecdotally, I’d like to interject that, as far as the environment is concerned, Mexican immigration is likely to be bad for California’s culture.
Having lived in Southern Arizona, it is pretty apparent that hispanic immigrants do not have the same customs with regard to littering that Americans do. Areas frequented by hispanic migrants are often strewn with trash just left behind from meals. Also my hispanic immigrant neighbors often simply throw random bits of trash over the fence into my yard – cigarette butts, empty drink cups, food wrappers, etc. They’ll just toss them out the window as they drive up their driveway, quite shamelessly.

122 Horhe November 17, 2015 at 6:15 pm

“Private discrimination is how cultures maintain their integrity without violating others’ rights”.

That’s deep. Never thought of it like this. I’m gonna remember it.

123 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 7:04 pm

Yeah, like all white lunch counters. Good, healthy, private discrimination.

124 Harun November 17, 2015 at 7:28 pm

You do know that many private businesses didn’t want separate counters, or separate seating, right?

There are cases where street car companies fought these laws.

Emphasis on laws: voters demanded the government force businesses to discriminate.

This means it was public discrimination, not necessarily private.

125 Gochujang November 17, 2015 at 9:03 pm

I love responses that contradict themselves several times across paragraphs. With “not necessarily private” as the capstone.

126 Cliff November 17, 2015 at 11:28 pm

What’s the contradiction?

127 Jay November 18, 2015 at 12:41 pm

Gochujang is the new Mulp, it’s probably best not to engage, he’s not looking for actual discussion.

128 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 10:22 pm

Sure, if a bunch of white people wanted to have an all white lunch counter they should be free to do so. I have some confidence in the human race that private discrimination will tend to endure only when the group being discriminated against is actually doing something worthy of ostracism. If Muslims are going to be violent assholes, then they are going to be discriminated against. If they aren’t violent assholes (or if there is some identifiable subgroup that isn’t), someone will figure that out and make money off of it.

But if you ban discrimination, you’re basically saying that people have to tolerate violent assholish behavior from Muslims, just because, which gives them a free reign to be violent assholes. Same goes for any other group. If it’s illegal to discriminate, there is no way to utilize social ostracism against sick cultures and the individuals they produce. Social ostracism is a really powerful, but non-violent, tool for influencing groups of people. We ought to be allowed to use it.

129 msgkings November 18, 2015 at 12:28 am

You are just the worst.

130 Kris November 18, 2015 at 3:58 am

I have some confidence in the human race that private discrimination will tend to endure only when the group being discriminated against is actually doing something worthy of ostracism

I don’t know about the human race, but those of your race did not start living up to this standard until the post-WW2 period.

131 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 4:32 am

@Kris: But when they started doing it, they went all out, and it’s getting more pants-on-head retarded with every Mizzou I read about.

132 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 11:23 am

I don’t know about the human race, but those of your race did not start living up to this standard until the post-WW2 period.

Again, the prevailing legal norms between 1877 and 1966 in the bulk of the Southern United States were not permissive but prescriptive. You had private discrimination outside the South. As late as 1940, 78% of the black population of the United States was to be found in the old Confederacy and a half-dozen adjacent states. The population of the non-Southern United States was about 3% black.

133 TallDave November 18, 2015 at 5:47 pm

For perspective, we dismantled Jim Crow around the same time the Chinese were establishing Maoism.

Free association is a basic human right. Discrimination is an exercise of free association. So discrimination is a basic human right. Do people abuse that right? Absolutely. There are people who abuse every right — speech, bearing arms, people even abuse privacy rights to hide deeply immoral acts like murder. There are a lot of assholes in every society, but the consequences should be social, not legal.

We’re not going to become a better society by pointing guns at each other and issuing demands.

134 RobertJordan November 18, 2015 at 9:34 am

If someone hates your guts, why would you want to eat anything they prepare for you?

135 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 10:06 am

I suppose that, barring suspicion of attempted murder, poisoning or some gross form of defiance, you’d eat it because it’s good and you want to eat there in the first place.

This is why millions of people move to countries inhabited, according to the media, by white supremacists, unrepentant Klanners and closet fascists. Or, in the case of internal migration, a minority longs to move out of the inner city which is bereft of opportunities and into the economically vibrant and forward looking suburbs, where the racist whites hoard capital and access to good schools.

It’s as if no one gave immigrants (of which Pew states there are 640 million adults willing to become that, mostly towards the West) the memo of the horrible things they would be subjected to once there, compared to their paradisiacal homes, with their simple, wholesome living in communion with nature, their ancestral traditions and their daily handshake with Malthus.

136 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 3:47 pm

What about Catholics?

137 Hazel Meade November 17, 2015 at 3:57 pm

Those fall under “Christian” according to most theorists.

138 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Yes, but how do the incomes of practicing Catholics (say, those attending Mass weekly) compare to non-Catholics?

There are actually more Muslims in France than there are Catholics who attend Mass weekly.

139 John L. November 17, 2015 at 4:13 pm

So what? Probably there are more French-born terrorists in Iraq/Syria than active foreign terrorists in France.

140 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm

So, is the alleged discrimination against Muslims specifically, or against the minority of French who are religious generally?

141 Thiago Ribeiro November 17, 2015 at 4:35 pm

Neither. I doubt an atheist Arab has a much easier life–factor in the Spinoza-like rebuke from his former comrades and he is probably worse-off. Why would a French landlord trust him? Maybe it is a ruse. “Let God sort them out.” There is a reason Americans and Brazilians did not interned only previously sentenced Japanese traitors. It would have been useless. As the old Brazilian terrorist taught, “we are strong where we are not expect” (like the Spanish Inquisition in fact). All Of “This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again”.

142 Thiago Ribeiro November 17, 2015 at 4:37 pm

* expected.

143 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 4:43 pm

The plight of the atheist Arabs who cannot escape association with religious Muslims notwithstanding, the religious probably have lower incomes generally.

144 Thiago Ribeiro November 17, 2015 at 5:06 pm

“The plight of the atheist Arabs who cannot escape association with religious Muslims notwithstanding, the religious probably have lower incomes generally.”
1) Maybe they are inferior to their (exceedingly) rare secularist counterparts. Being Muslim is like being Witness of Jeovah or something, without the crazy pacifist thing.
2) How the landlord knows they are religious? Mine don’t ask about my church attendance. But I am not an Arab in France, I am a white-ish guy in Brazil.

145 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 5:52 pm

I expect the French landlords don’t know, or much care, about the religious Catholics, but that the religious Catholics nonetheless have lower incomes than the non- or less-religious. Simple matter of priorities.

146 Thiago Ribeiro November 17, 2015 at 6:42 pm

Maybe I am just unsensitive, but, concerning wordly affairs, I would rather be a devoted Catholic than an atheist Arab. As for priorities, religious people are hardly the only ones with priorities hard to turn into money. Catholics at least are grandfathered in the most of the West. Seventh day adventists are weird with their notions about the pyramids (just joking), diet and the Saturday thing.

147 TallDave November 18, 2015 at 2:45 pm

Of course you would be, but that’s the French;s fault.

148 TallDave November 18, 2015 at 2:45 pm

*that’s not the French’s fault.

149 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 5:08 pm

I think you mean many more nominal Muslims. If you’re grading observance, you have to do some subtracting from the 7.5% headline figure.

150 TallDave November 17, 2015 at 5:53 pm

I’m sure that’s true, I’m also sure a far higher proportion of French Muslims attend services weekly — that is to say, they are far more religious than the Catholics.

151 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 9:54 am

Observance levels would have to be about 40% for them to exceed the number of practicing Catholics.

152 TallDave November 18, 2015 at 2:48 pm
153 Thiago Ribeiro November 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Jack Cjick says they are not Christians.

154 Thiago Ribeiro November 17, 2015 at 4:12 pm

* Chick

155 Cliff November 17, 2015 at 11:31 pm

They worship Bahamut

156 Christian List November 17, 2015 at 3:51 pm

“Integration” is a very odd concept. What does it even mean? Do the Chinese immigrants from Chinatown commit terrorist attacks because they aren’t *integrated* enough?!

Integration should not be the focus. It’s all about terrorist attacks. People that support terrorist attacks should not be integrated. They should be disintegrated.

157 The Original D November 17, 2015 at 5:31 pm

Are the Chinese children bullied at school? Is it harder for them to get a job because they have Mohammed in their name?

158 Harun November 17, 2015 at 7:00 pm

Yes, Chinese kids can be bullied.

Your name being Mohammed was not a big deal until terrorism started.

Same with Osama. or Adolf.

159 Christian List November 17, 2015 at 7:17 pm

@Original D
“Are the Chinese children bullied at school?”

No of course not. Chinese kids can not be bullied. All human kids got a special chip implanted at birth so they only bully Muslims. Asian kids, fat kids, small kids, tall kids, ugly kids, different kids – they never get bullied. Only Muslims get bullied and discriminated against. It’s a Jewish conspiracy against all Muslims in the world.

Osama bin Laden and his fellows had an exceptional hard life. They got bullied by their servants and their huge fortune. I bet it was Jewish money. It was really, really hard for them. So they just had to fly into WTC. They just had to. There was no other way.

160 Cliff November 17, 2015 at 11:32 pm

All of a sudden leftists are really big on blaming the victim when it comes to Muslim terrorism

161 Jeff R. November 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm

That was poor Tim McVeigh’s problem, too: people weren’t nice enough to him. Probably Anders Breivik, too. If deranged right-wingers commit acts of domestic terrorism, it’s usually because leftists were mean to them.

162 Horhe November 17, 2015 at 6:31 pm

Western lone wolf terrorists are universally reviled. Unlike Muslim martyrs, their families do not give out sweets to celebrate their deaths or their bodycounts. Neither do people spontaneously flood the streets to cheer for Dylan Roof. This all happens for Muslims – there is a sizable constituency that visibly celebrates acts of terror and a much larger social structure which might not advocate for the death of Westerners, but neither does it feel any sort of attachment to Western values, institutions and society and would not mind if they went away violently. This is the environment which shelters the budding terrorist, allows him to explore his idea, meet like-minded individuals and eventually decide to act.

163 Harun November 17, 2015 at 7:29 pm

I think he was being sarcastic.

164 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 4:34 am

Figured as much, but thought I could add something.

165 Art Deco November 17, 2015 at 4:16 pm

I find it quite peculiar that none of the three authors is an economist or sociologist. They are all political scientists.

They offer some topical commentary here. Among there complaints is that the schools are not

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/01/14/terror-in-france-implications-for-muslim-integration/

staffed with Jaime Escalante clones who can close every ‘gap’ and that employers don’t know what’s good for them (but professors who don’t know business from tiddlywinks stand ready to instruct them).

166 Peter Schaeffer November 17, 2015 at 7:26 pm

AD,

From the article you linked to.

“An overwhelming majority of French society attributes the failure of Muslims to fully integrate to Muslims’ refusal to integrate themselves. While it would be easy to write this off as unfounded prejudice, it is important to examine the roots of these beliefs. Our research suggests that two factors distinguish Muslims from French society in a way that feeds French discrimination: Not only are Muslims in France less secularized than the average French, they also support more conservative views and behaviors toward women. In other words, Muslims in France are culturally distinct in ways that deeply threaten French society today; for they challenge France’s century-long commitment to the separation of church and state (what the French call “laïcité”) and its 50-year struggle for gender equality.”

So the solution is easy. The French should join the Society of St Pius X and discriminate against women.

167 Steve Sailer November 17, 2015 at 8:55 pm

From my 2009 film review of “The Class,” which was a big winner at Cannes:

“The Class” is based on an autobiographical novel by schoolteacher François Bégaudeau. In the manner of WWII hero Audie Murphy, who played himself in the film version of his memoir “To Hell and Back,” Bégaudeau portrays a teacher named M. Marin. “The Class” could be called “To Heck and Back” because “inner city” doesn’t mean quite the same thing in Paris as it does in Detroit. The French like their cities, so the riotous public housing projects are out in Paris’s dreary suburbs. The Parisian 14-year-olds in “The Class” aren’t gun-packing gangbangers, as in Hollywood movies. They’re just mouthy adolescents, lazy, not terribly bright, and full of ressentiment at the dominance of elitist French culture.

M. Marin’s French literature class is half-French and half-minority, with the unrulier Muslims, black and white, absorbing most of his attention. The smartest and most respectful student is a Chinese immigrant, while the worst troublemaker is Souleymane from Mali in sub-Saharan Africa. One well-spoken lad who hopes to win admission to the elite Lycée Henri IV goes largely ignored in the turmoil caused by his less intelligent classmates. They constantly monitor whether they are being disrespected, so they can get off task. Griping about being dissed is more fun than being forced to reveal to the other kids that they can’t do the work. Marin banters with them, but he’s too genteel to thrive amidst all the dominance struggles.

Now in his fifth year, Marin is no longer an idealist. When a naive colleague suggests that Marin should assign Voltaire’s Candide, he demurs, “The Enlightenment will be tough for them.” Marin tries to get the class to read The Diary of Anne Frank instead (which, in “Freedom Writers,” turns teacher Erin Gruwell’s slum students into prodigies of literary creativity), but it mostly annoys Marin’s heavily Muslim class.

More at:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/02/class.html

168 dearieme November 18, 2015 at 3:04 pm

“they also support more conservative views and behaviors toward women”: for Christ’s sake, it’s France. Chopping women’s naughty bits off isn’t “conservative”, quite the opposite.

169 Dan in Euroland November 17, 2015 at 4:23 pm

If anyone is interested in the paper it can be downloaded here at the author’s website: https://sites.google.com/site/mavalfortwebpage/home/research

170 The Anti-Gnostic November 17, 2015 at 4:34 pm

That’s what separate countries are for.

171 Kris November 18, 2015 at 7:38 am

Can’t that logic go the other way too? When different groups within a country fail to get along and reach an impasse, should they split the country?

The “country as a cocoon for like minded people of shared ethnicity who always get along” is a utopian fantasy and an illusion. If France kicks out all non-native Frenchmen from its country now, eventually other fissures will form amongst the white people. That shared ethnic identity is a sufficient basis for integration is an unsubstantiated assertion. All integration, within or without racial boundaries, requires effort, otherwise human societies have a natural proclivity for disintegration. The countries of today, the nation states, even the most homogeneous ones, are by no means natural entities that were somehow inevitable; they often required brute force to create and maintain. Anywhere people are not properly integrated are societies that have not put in the right amount of effort to achieve integration.

172 The Anti-Gnostic November 18, 2015 at 10:07 am

I don’t see why not. The differences between certain groups are intractable, Jews and Arabs, for example. They should have separate countries. Irish, Scots and English all seem to prefer fences with their neighbors. Same with Serbs and Croats. The Kurds don’t seem to want to become Turks, Syrians or Iranians despite the advantages of being in a larger risk-spreading pool with coastal access.

“All integration, within or without racial boundaries, requires effort, otherwise human societies have a natural proclivity for disintegration.”

I would say erstwhile social engineers should focus on channeling natural proclivities rather than stubbornly bashing the society with a ball peen hammer, over and over, expecting humans to be born differently at some point.

If you think “diversity,” is a good thing, well, where do you think “diversity” comes from?

173 FUBAR007 November 18, 2015 at 11:04 am

@Kris: “Can’t that logic go the other way too? When different groups within a country fail to get along and reach an impasse, should they split the country?”

In a word, yes. That, or federate as much as possible.

Two distinct cultures can only peacefully coexist in the same space to the extent that their norms and values overlap OR that a sufficiently powerful ruling authority forces them to get along just enough. Even in the case of the latter, such peace usually involves some sort of caste hierarchy, de facto or de jure.

This is what the Open Borders, multi-cultural globalists don’t get: you can’t legislate people into liking each other. You can’t shame them into liking each other, either.

The issue with a portion of Muslim immigrants, and particularly the male offspring thereof, in France–and the rest of Western and Northern Europe–is that, at bottom, they don’t want to assimilate. They want the economic benefits of Western society, but they aren’t willing to Westernize. They aren’t willing to jettison the norms and beliefs that conflict with those of the West much less adopt Western norms and beliefs.

True integration requires assimilation.

174 The Anti-Gnostic November 18, 2015 at 11:23 am

And assimilation means outmarriage. And since Arab and African Muslims are extremely low marriage market value for French, they can only end up in resentful, isolated ghettoes. It is appallingly shortsighted and negligent to bring these people into Anglo-European countries.

175 Art Deco November 18, 2015 at 3:51 pm

And since Arab and African Muslims are extremely low marriage market value

It’s a reasonable inference the bulk of the resistance is coming from the other direction. A smorgasbord of Muslim immigrant segments have low rates of intermarriage in Germany, France, and the UK alike (low meaning around 10%). By contrast, the inter-marriage rate for British West Indians is 40%. If you had a mess of Indonesians, it might look different. IIRC, most Indonesians in the Netherlands are Christians from the Moluccas.

176 TheAJ November 17, 2015 at 7:04 pm

My position is that if the French are incapable of integrating Muslims and are so discriminatory against them, then continued Muslim immigration will not make things any better.

Why keep trying to jam a square peg through a round hole?

We all find in life there are people that you try to be so nice to, and you think you are doing all the right things, but they just don’t want you around. Why should I bother forcing myself upon them? Sometimes you just have to count your marbles and go home.

However, I still do not understand why with evidence in a post like this, the most common reply isn’t either “thats wrong” or “I hope that is not the case”. Instead its just the usual “Muslims are evil!” which they use simultaneously deny that any type of discrimination exists or to justify it.

Well I guess I, this is apparently what happens when the usual racists and bigots gather around.

177 M November 17, 2015 at 7:14 pm

Following the National Academy of Sciences’ 2001 recommendations on combining a variety of methodologies and applying them to real-world situations, this research identifies, measures, and infers consequences of discrimination based on religious affiliation, controlling for potentially confounding factors, such as race and country of origin.

From this, I’m assuming they’re comparing essentially Muslim West Africans to Christian West Africans, and from this paper, this seems to be the case. There are probably well sufficient reasons for different income between these groups, beyond how their CVs are assessed.

I expect the French probably do choose to freely associate not with Muslims of course. It will be mood affiliation for Americans to see something wrong in this though (the “snooty French” meme). In good conscience, I cannot see how anyone could lay anything but opprobrium on any Muslim who reacted to this with a dislike of the French.

178 Stephan November 17, 2015 at 8:07 pm

I believe Islam is the main problem. If these immigrants were say Buddhists,or from the Bahai faith or Hindus , the integration would be significantly better. Islam discriminates strongly against women. Women are largely out of sight, not in the the public sphere. This prevents women from acting as a softening force on society. Women promote family life and commit less crimes . It’s very hard to be friend with a Muslim family as you cannot visit their homes and talk to their women. In addition their attitude towards women always creates friction with western women.
If Muslims were relaxed about women, they would all be much better off.

179 Moreno Klaus November 17, 2015 at 8:54 pm

This is an important point. Most people in human resource department are women, and i doubt they would like to see a lot of muslim men in their company. To be fair i can not really blame them…they are absolutely right, on average.

180 Horhe November 18, 2015 at 4:38 am

And yet it’s the HR Department demographic that is holding up refugees welcome signs and protesting with the malcontents at Missouri.

181 jim jones November 18, 2015 at 1:50 am

I have some Malaysian student friends and they are quite relaxed about inviting me round for a meal. The women do not even cover their hair,

182 dux.ie November 17, 2015 at 8:30 pm

There is another angle to be considered. The second gen immigrants are born locally and many such as the paper cited
used the equality of outcomes as the benchmark for comparison whereas it should be the equality of opportunities
depending on ability. Although religion could have some effects, the ability gap is much more relevant for the
general population. The religion effect cannot equally explains the extra radicalization in Belgium. The second
gen immigrants in Belgium are performing even worse than that for the first gen. There is little doubt that Belgium
produces the most radical second gen immigrants as it is the place where the gap is the highest and the competition
is the strongest, i.e. from the OECD PISA scores converted to equivalent IQ scores,

IQ2ndGenImm-IQnative,Country,IQ1stGenImm,IQ2ndGenImm,IQnative

-11.875 Belgium 89.375 86.71875 98.59375

-10.46875 Denmark 84.53125 86.40625 96.875

-10.46875 Netherlands 87.03125 88.59375 99.0625

-8.28125 France 85.78125 90.78125 99.0625

-7.65625 England 96.875 92.34375 100.0

-7.34375 Austria 89.21875 90.9375 98.28125

-6.5625 Norway 87.96875 91.25 97.8125

-6.40625 Portugal 92.5 90.0 96.40625

-6.25 Germany 90.625 92.5 98.75

-5.625 Sweden 83.4375 90.3125 95.9375

-3.90625 Spain 87.03125 89.84375 93.75

-3.59375 Italy 88.75 95.3125 98.90625

-1.71875 UnitedStates 94.375 96.875 98.59375

It is interesting to note that the above ranking roughly corresponds to that for the Per Capita Foreign Fighter
Statistics

http://qz.com/551371/brussels-where-e500-buys-a-gun-in-30-minutes-has-become-europes-jihadi-capital/

183 Steve Sailer November 17, 2015 at 9:17 pm

Thanks.

184 dux.ie November 18, 2015 at 8:39 pm

It seems that I had stuck my neck out to say that the ranking of IQGap was ‘roughly corresponds’ with PerCapitaJihad
by inspection only. In fact on closer examination rather than just ranking the direct relationship is very
significant even for this type of socio-economic data.

The original source of data for the qz.com report was from ICSR, Department of War Studies, King’s College London,
London, http://icsr.info/2015/01/foreign-fighter-total-syriairaq-now-exceeds-20000-surpasses-afghanistan-conflict-1980s/
where more data are available. However, OECD PISA only has limited data on the performance of migrant students. From
this 18 data points for westernized country can be collected, much more than the 8 given in qz.com article. From
this a regression analysis can be run, jihad is the PerCapitaJihad, IQDiff is the equivalent IQGap between second
generation immigrant students and the locals, similar results can be obtained if the original PISA scores are used,

Regression Equation for Jihad:
Jihad = -1.771 IQDiff + 2.29094

Significance test for prediction of Jihad
Mult-R R-Squared SEest F(1,16) prob (F)
0.7199 0.5182 7.0604 17.2122 0.0008 ***

Signif. codes: 0 ***, 0.001 **, 0.01 *, 0.05 .

In academic regression studies, significant level of 0.05 (result usually denoted with a dot (.)) is usually
required. The above regression is significant at the gold standard triple asterixes(?) level at Pr(F)<0.001.
So the number of data point is small but it is very significant. So take your pick. It should be noted that
the result is relevant at the group level, not at particular individual level. By framing the problem primarily
with respect to the slightly more neutral IQDiff which is more relevant and expressive, and can avoids the more
touchy subjects of religion or races which cannot explain the fine grain results among Belgium, Denmark, Spain and
Italy, though they might come back secondarily due to the collateral effects. (Just wandering if there is any
simple factor that can explain the international brigades in the Spanish Civil war)

The above relationship can explain the PerCapitaJihad values being high for Belgium and Denmark, and low for Spain
and Italy. It has been claimed that Belgium did not spend enough resources on national security. The above
equation can easily be used as the basis for estimating security resources needed with respect to the national
and neighbors IQDiff.

The PISA data I think was the dataset used by Lynn to study fluidg and released to the public by Kirkegaard, or
else the PISA project pdf reports can be scraped for the data. The raw regression data used,

IQDif PerCapitaJihad Country

-11.875 40.0 Belgium

-10.46875 27.0 Denmark

-5.625 19.0 Sweden

-8.28125 18.0 France

-7.34375 17.0 Austria

-10.46875 14.5 Netherlands

-10.625 13.0 Finland

-6.5625 12.0 Norway

-7.65625 9.5 United Kingdom

0.15625 8.36 Serbia

-1.5625 8.07 Russia

1.25 7.69 Australia

-6.25 7.5 Germany

-1.71875 7.0 Ireland

-2.03125 2.85 Canada

-3.90625 2.0 Spain

-3.59375 1.5 Italy

-1.71875 0.31 United States of America

185 freethinker November 17, 2015 at 11:35 pm

Muslim refugees don’t want to go to Muslim nations but to secular western ones. Why i wonder

186 Arjun November 18, 2015 at 12:03 am

Actually by the raw numbers, there are more refugees in Muslim countries right now than in secular Western countries by an order of magnitude.

187 freethinker November 18, 2015 at 4:09 am

Still, that does not explain why these particular refugees have an affinity for nations with the hateful, ungodly, western culture which is the mirror image of their own cultural values

188 Kris November 18, 2015 at 7:46 am

Perhaps the people fleeing their countries are amongst the minority that doesn’t subscribe to its broader society’s cultural values and is open to the “hateful, ungodly, western culture”?

Commenters can correct me if I am wrong, but the vast bulk of Muslims in Western European countries seem to be descendants of “guest workers” who were provided incentives by the host societies to immigrate, and were not selected for their affinity to western values. In many cases, they were drawn from the peasant classes of Berber or Turkish societies, who would be the least likely to assimilate into western societies. Those people were not refugees, but having been invited, they seem to have spotted a nice situation and stayed there, regardless of their alienation from the wider culture. And their children, growing up rootless, were ripe for the picking for jihadi networks. It is not clear to me why current refugees are being compared to the existing “immigrant” populations, when the selective forces seem to be so obviously different.

189 Tom November 18, 2015 at 7:07 am

Why would that matter?

190 Cliff Arroyo November 18, 2015 at 1:29 am

A couple of points.

The muslim preference for wives who don’t interact with unrelated men means that muslim communities in a country where both sexes are expected to work will not thrive economically. From what I remember young muslim women do significantly better than young muslim men in school but then mostly don’t enter the work force due to cultural/religious factors.

A traditional path to integration is intermarriage. Since usually young women go to their husbands the muslim ban on muslim women marrying non-muslim men (reinforced by credible threats of force) greatly limits long term connections between locals and newcomers. A few young local women might marry into the muslim community but no one marries out and this helps create and maintain a ghetto “us vs them” mentality among muslim immigrants.

191 The Anti-Gnostic November 18, 2015 at 10:43 am

Thank you for the reminder on this meandering thread: assimilation means out-marriage, and that is that.

Muslim Africans and Arabs are simply not desirable spouses for French people, so they are going to end up recreating their societies as ghettoes in the host state. There is no good reason to allow immigration from such a wildly disparate culture.

192 Dan Hanson November 18, 2015 at 3:44 pm

The elephant in the room: Stringent labor regulations in France that make it very hard to fire an employee after a probationary period. This increases employment risk, and is going to drive employers towards ‘safer’ candidates – people with established roots in the community, with references from known individuals, etc. Under those conditions, an immigrant with no experience and no paper trail of work performance is going to be severely disadvantaged.

No racism or anti-muslim sentiment required to explain this – just fundamental economics.

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