North African assimilation into France

The 2008-9 survey Trajectoires et origines shows that forty-four percent of the descendants of masculine immigrants of Algerian or Moroccan origin have a spouse who is neither an immigrant nor a descendant of immigrants.  The rate rises to 60 percent for those of Tunisian origin, falls to 42 percent for those of Turkish origin, rises back to 65 per cent for those of sub-Saharan African origin (we cannot, in this latter case, distinguish between Muslims and non-Muslims).  For women, the rates are a little lower, which is to be expected in disintegrating patrilineal cultures, but they remain at a very high level for those of Algerian (41 per cent), Moroccan (34 per cent) and sub-Saharan African (40 per cent) origin…But while exogamy is not yet a major practice, these groups have clearly been welded to French society…We need at this point to emphasize the speed with which populations from sub-Saharan Africa have integrated…

That is from Emmanuel Todd, Who is Charlie?, pp.162-163.  Here is my previous post on the book.

Comments

So, no ghettos in France then?

Yeah, that is exactly what the post said.

All,

For those interested in something closer to the truth, take a look at "Berlin Gets Bad News From PISA" (by Anatoly Karlin). The reference is to Germany, but there is data for France as well. Immigrant students massively under-perform in the first generation and don't do much better in the second.

For another set of data points, see "Second Generation Immigrants in Europe Are de-assimilating" (by Tino Sanandaji). Here are the key numbers.

Comparing Second generation male immigrant relative employment rates with the first generation immigrants:

UK -10%
France -13%
Germany -19%

Comparing Second generation female immigrant relative employment rates with the first generation immigrants:

UK +15%
France +8%
Germany +2%

Employment rates (the figure in the parenthesis compared immigrants to the native born):

U.K

Native Men: 79.0%
First generation non-European immigrant Men: 67.8% (-14%)
Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 60.0% (-24%)

Native women: 66.5%
First generation non-European immigrant Women: 43.3% (-35%)
Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 53.5% (-20%)

France

Native Men: 66.3%
First generation non-European immigrant Men: 61.6% (-7%)
Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 53.0% (-20%)

Native Women: 58.9%
First generation non-European immigrant Women: 37.6% (-36%)
Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 42.4% (-28%)

Germany

Native Men: 75.3%
First generation non-European immigrant Men: 68.5% (-9%)
Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 53.9% (-28%)

Native women: 65.8%
First generation non-European immigrant Women: 42.5% (-35%)
Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 43.8% (-33%)

JJ, Jan,

The overall European experience with mass immigration from North Africa has been poor. This post is just another public relations effort to cover the dismal facts on the ground. If anyone seriously doubts this, take a look at the numbers for criminality, welfare utilization, employment, education, etc. Of course, everyone in Europe knows this (more or less). An older comment by "Peter Akuleyev" makes this point all too well.

"Immigration is not just about job loss. What has become obvious to me after moving back to Europe after a long spell in the states is the extent to which immigration has degraded urban school systems, at least in countries I know well like Austria and Germany. 30 years ago it was rare that parents weren’t happy with the neighborhood schools in cities like Vienna, Berlin or Hamburg. Today middle and upper middle class parents increasingly resemble Americans – trying to find private schools for their children, warning each other to avoid certain schools if you want your children to speak German correctly, or moving to affluent suburbs. Public school teachers are increasingly burned out and frustrated. In Vienna, at least, the government seems to have no idea how to cope – German as foreign language classes are poorly taught and underfunded, immersion doesn’t work well either if 50% of the class can’t speak German. This has been naturally creating a vicious cycle where the immigrant dominated schools are becoming increasingly disfunctional. And all that was already happening before the recent wave, which is going to dump thousands more unprepared non-German speaking children into the school system. Yet these same upper middle class parents, as well as teachers, tend to be among the groups most vocal about how immigration is a boon to our society."

The "revealed preference" in Europe is for an end to mass immigration.

There's a pretty good French movie about a diverse school in Paris called "The Class" in which a French teacher who wrote the book plays himself. I reviewed it in The American Conservative:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/02/class.html

Pretty good review of "The Class" , thanks

Steve,

From your article

"An obnoxious girl of North African descent objects to the teacher’s Eurocentric names as “Honkies, Frenchies, Frogs!”"

Tino Sanandaji make a great point about the corrupting influence of American "urban" culture in Europe. Quote

"Resentment toward the West makes integration harder. Immigrants learn — and make use of — the message of victimhood, which fosters hostility toward their host society. And claiming victim status is appealing from a psychological perspective, as it confers moral superiority. Immigrants who wish to integrate and adopt a Swedish identity are accused of “acting white” or being “an Uncle Tom.” The latter is not a translation from Swedish; the American phrase “Uncle Tom” is the actual term of abuse."

Over on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4&v=UHsXWYaTlik) you can find an interview with Tino Sanandaji. He observes that 99% of the political class in Sweden (which overtly promotes Open Borders) goes to pains to keep as far from immigrants as possible in their own lives.

The best way of understanding this is "the bubble versus the people".

Thanks Peter for injecting some sanity into this immigration love fest. I hope Germany's electorate stands up to Merkel unhinged immigration plans.

Just to preempt the inevitable:

[insert xenophobic and nativist comment here]

If they are capable of creating a functional democratic society let them do it in their homelands. Would you hire someone as an employee if they weren't capable of completing high school?

Someone should figure out the genes for clannishnes and create a version of Singapore where you're only allowed in if you're not genetically predisposed to nepotism (and crime etc.) Then the left would have to face about the truth: it's not about the color of your skin, it's about your behaviors. And the inconvenient truth is that we are not all blank slates and some important behaviors are genetic in origin. Part of being an adult is learning to deal with inconvenient facts like this.

We folks who cooperate in the prisoner's dilemma gotta stick together, regardless of race. Once you get even a few defectors shit goes downhill.

the Chinese of Singapore are massively predisposed to clannishness, it took a massive amount of cultural engineering to exorcise it

(and the Cultural Revolution to uproot it back in the motherland)

david,

You win this one. The Chinese of Singapore still are clannish. Perhaps less so than in the past. It is also true, that the institutions of Singapore promote a more open and transparent society. However, traditional Chinese culture is still an influence in Singapore and elsewhere.

Overall, Chinese culture has many virtues (hard work, savings, education, entrepreneurship, investment in children, etc.) and some demerits. The worst failing of Chinese culture is a tendency towards amoral familism. Certainly, Lee Kuan Yew and his People's Party struggled against it (with some success). Mao and the communists dd as well. However, that started back in 1949, not with the Cultural Revolution. The Cultural Revolution was a revolt against the practical realities of a socialist (communist) state, not Chinese clannishness.

The remarkable thing is how successful Chinese economies are in spite of clannishness. Clearly, the other virtues of Chinese culture much more than offset the downsides.

Europeans were clannish for ninety something percent of their history. Just ask the Scots.

It's institutions and culture, not genes.

"Europeans were clannish for ninety something percent of their history."

-After the Roman era? I don't believe it.

Southern Europeans are an obvious exception to the rule.

People have been in Europe for tens of thousands of years. If Rome put an end to clannishness, then yeah, 90% is about right.

Where would you get the idea that clannishness stopped with Rome. You know what happened to Western Rome, right?

Let's see the Western Roman Empire was replaced in large part by an ecclestical-dominated political structure that actively combated clannish by banning cousin marriage. And to be clear the Roman Empire was completely non-clannish. One of its salient features was the growth of powerful families that formed reciprocal relationships with large groups of non-family members in a kind of patronage system.

Let’s see the Western Roman Empire was replaced in large part by an ecclestical-dominated political structure

No, by a set of territorial kingdoms wherein a modest layer of Germanic nobles ruled over a Celtic-Mediterranean population from which they differed by confession (at least in the initial centuries). In Britain they were replaced by a mess of Celtic-Roman chieftaincies duking it out with Germanic warriors. You've confounded Late Antiquity with the High Middle Ages.

Indeed. It banned clannishness instantaneously!

If Europeans were so clannish, they would never have been able to create the post Middle Ages Nation States (as Arabs have not been able to do). If modern capitalism thrived in Europe, is because you could trust a non relative in a commercial transactions

Your source defines the opposition as "mostly stupid" and friendlies as "aware". This makes it very easy to write him off, but he has some interesting things to add. Mostly I'm critical though...

Surprise! English speaking countries produce more scientific publications in an English-language dominated world. How many Americans published in Chinese-language and French-language journals? Obviously Americans are soooo stupid, they don't publish in Chinese or French journals.

Surprise! Countries with good education systems have higher average IQ scores, and those where tests are administered in languages that are usually 2nd, 3rd or 4th languae of test takers have lower average scores. (So ... how well did you do on the IQ test administered in Swedish? Shall I conclude that you're a mental retard?)

Surprise! Countries with large populations, strong higher education and strong patent protection have more patents. Malians are soooo stupid, they registered their patents in EU and US instead of in countries where the patents are meaningless.

Surprise! There are more researchers per capita in countries with functioning higher education systems and large public supports for research. Ethiopians are soooo stupid, they move to countries where they can get jobs and funding to pursue research.

Surprise! Poorer Eastern European countries and the Balkans, with poorer quality education systems perform less well on "intelligence" tests.

Surprise! Inventors and artists historically flock to regions where wealth agglomeration allows elites to support their work, and the historical record shows that trade-rich regions also have lots of artists and scientists.

Oh, but the only theory that carries any weight to the writer is that NW Europeans are genetically superior (implicitly, others are inferior).

Much credit to the writer, however, for demonstrating an example where an IQ test can have cultural bias - the flower example. (I guess I'm an easterner). Also, his comments on clannishness are interesting, but all the less credible for attributing a genetic component whereas I think that quite a lot of people accept that all people in all places were naturally clannish before more "advanced" sociopolitical systems, a cultural/technological advance, came into being.

Nathan W October 7, 2015 at 5:35 am

Surprise! English speaking countries produce more scientific publications in an English-language dominated world.

So you are claiming Jamaica is an intellectual powerhouse that has produced a lot of scientific publications lately? How easy is it for Jamaican scientists to get published?

How many Americans published in Chinese-language and French-language journals? Obviously Americans are soooo stupid, they don’t publish in Chinese or French journals.

Your mistake is to assume that Chinese- and French-language journals share anything in common with American ones except the name journal. There was a scandal recently where Chinese companies were found to be running bogus journals and charging academics - they would write, peer review and publish an article if you paid them. Except a lot of the journals were not bogus.

Surprise! Countries with good education systems have higher average IQ scores, and those where tests are administered in languages that are usually 2nd, 3rd or 4th languae of test takers have lower average scores.

Yet students in Hong Kong, Singapore and Shanghai - who all do the test in their second or third language - do just fine. Moreover it is possible that countries with high IQ scores have good education systems. Cause and effect is hard. What is noticeable is how well the Shanghai Chinese do in PISA tests despite the fact that the country does not have a good education system.

Surprise! Countries with large populations, strong higher education and strong patent protection have more patents. Malians are soooo stupid, they registered their patents in EU and US instead of in countries where the patents are meaningless.

They are pretty stupid not to enforce patents. If that is all it takes.

Surprise! There are more researchers per capita in countries with functioning higher education systems and large public supports for research. Ethiopians are soooo stupid, they move to countries where they can get jobs and funding to pursue research.

The Communist countries always had more researchers than the West did. China graduates a lot more engineers. Well, "engineers".

Surprise! Poorer Eastern European countries and the Balkans, with poorer quality education systems perform less well on “intelligence” tests.

They do not have poorer quality education systems. Nor do they do poorly on IQ tests.

Surprise! Inventors and artists historically flock to regions where wealth agglomeration allows elites to support their work, and the historical record shows that trade-rich regions also have lots of artists and scientists.

Chicken and egg again.

Islands with warm beaches and cold beer produce few scientific papers, film at 11.

So you are claiming Jamaica is an intellectual powerhouse that has produced a lot of scientific publications lately? How easy is it for Jamaican scientists to get published?

On a per-capita basis it may well be.

So you are claiming Jamaica is an intellectual powerhouse that has produced a lot of scientific publications lately? How easy is it for Jamaican scientists to get published?

There are 2.7 million people in Jamaica. No, it is not an intellectual powerhouse. New Zealand and Uruguay are not intellectual powerhouses either, in spite of all the white people in both loci. Interestingly, the Anglo-Caribbean countries do punch above their weight in literature (V.S. Naipaul, Derek Wolcott) and music (calypso and reggae).

Just producing Rutherford and no one else would be a worthy contribution.

NW,

You are confusing wealth and education. Many countries (notably in Asia) attained very high levels of education well before they achieved any level of prosperity. Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, S. Korea, etc. were all well-educated countries before they reached European levels (or higher) levels of per-capita GDP.

Rich countries don't produce highly education populations. It is the other way around. Indeed, some quite poor countries have done rather well in education. Of course, fast economic growth followed (Vietnam is a good current example).

The talents and values of a nation, drive the education system which in turn feeds economic expansion. For a tragic U.S. example, take a look at Puerto Rico. PR has plenty of money for its schools. Results are rock-bottom (far below Mississippi). Urban schools in the U.S. (mainland) provide many other examples. Vast funding. Dismal results.

Gochujang October 7, 2015 at 6:26 am

Islands with warm beaches and cold beer produce few scientific papers, film at 11.

Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong are unproductive?

The Original D October 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm

On a per-capita basis it may well be.

Has a Jamaican ever produced one reputable peer reviewed article on the subject of physics?

Art Deco October 7, 2015 at 2:33 pm

New Zealand and Uruguay are not intellectual powerhouses either, in spite of all the white people in both loci.

As John Mansfield points out, producing Ernest Rutherford is no mean achievement.

Explain your claim that children in Shanghai take tests in their 2nd or 3rd language.

Let me guess...you think kids in China grow up speaking their local variant of Chinese and count that as a "different" language.

Its not, really.

Also, kids in Singapore can go to Mandarin schools if they want, or English.

Harun October 7, 2015 at 9:47 pm

Let me guess…you think kids in China grow up speaking their local variant of Chinese and count that as a “different” language. Its not, really.

It is actually. We could argue over whether children growing up in Shanxi grow up speaking a variant of Mandarin. But children in Shanghai, until recently, grew up speaking a different language. As do children in Hong Kong. It is even worse in Singapore.

Also, kids in Singapore can go to Mandarin schools if they want, or English.

So they can. So a child born into a Tieuchow family would speak one language at home, would have to learn Cantonese to speak to their friends and then would have to learn English and Mandarin to pass their High School. They seem to do fine on IQ tests.

Yes, the Shanghia dialect is quite different from Chinese. I lived for a year in Wenzhou, where the local dialect is quite related to Shanghaihau ... I learned Mandarin while there, but didn't understand a single word of the local dialect. But they learn the same written script for their entire lives. IQ is a written test, not an oral one.

On the matter of variants - no one suggests that Portuguese and Spanish are mere dialects, or that it's no matter for a Portuguese person to be tested in Spanish or vice versa. It's an obvious disadvantage. Only a monoglot or someone fully raised in two languages would disagree.

Your mistake is to assume that Chinese- and French-language journals share anything in common with American ones except the name journal. There was a scandal recently where Chinese companies were found to be running bogus journals and charging academics – they would write, peer review and publish an article if you paid them. Except a lot of the journals were not bogus.

Thanks for comparing French-language journals to the Chinese language and to assume that no academic publication can exist outside the US. This is not at all biased or US centric but an objective statement

Jamaicans and patents - Most Jamaicans don't have very good English for the purpose of being published (even the smart and educated ones, which you would know if you've met a few), and their education system sucks balls. At the level of high academic expertise, basically anyone remotely with a hope of making it to the cutting edge will migrate to places with better academic institutions.

2nd language IQ testing - The point about 2nd, 3rd, 4th languages is mostly about Africa. I've had to write tests in my second language, and I assure you it takes more time and makes it more difficult to obtain good test scores. (I had to take exams in French, but they let me write papers in English.) Are you sure that people in HK, Singapore and Shanghai write their test in their second language? I can't find anything about this online. The parts about abstract reasoning are subject to cultural bias, the parts about language inherently benefit native speakers and the educated, and most of the mathematical/logic reasoning flows almost directly from strong exposure to a good maths education.

Patents - I agree that it seems stupid not to have a good patent system, but I think it's more complicated. You need a pretty advanced legal and judicial system to enforce patents, and many countries with poor patent systems suffer from a lot of problems which are far more pressing. Corruption is a big one, but consider that the vast majority of them only started building their legal code in the post-1960s era and had no pre-existing domestic capacity for either law enforcement or legal apparatus (compare to East Asia, which had no less than centuries of experience in "advanced" legal systems). Rwanda, for example, has targeted improvements in accounting and legal services as one of the main roadblocks to becoming an advanced economy, and has prioritized these as a matter of public policy. Consider that many of these countries don't yet have an existing land registry that is particularly functional, so I think patents easily number pretty low on the list of priorities, especially considering that, realistically, there is little or no patentable discovery happening in most post-colonial economies. It would be costly to develop and enforce a credible patent system, while more credible patent protection is already available in US and EU, and they have more pressing issues to deal with.

Re: communist countries - yeah, I think it is basically agreed that greater intellectual freedom is good for both raw science and inventiveness. Moreover, the presence of a large and diverse market is generally accepted as critical for inventive people to be able to test ideas, some of which eventually enjoy market success, hardly possible in a truly communist economy.

Nathan W October 7, 2015 at 8:02 am

Most Jamaicans don’t have very good English for the purpose of being published (even the smart and educated ones, which you would know if you’ve met a few), and their education system sucks balls.

Chicken and egg again. They do speak English and learning a proper accent and grammar is a lot easier than learning an entirely new language. Does their education system suck because they are not very bright or are they not very bright because their education system sucks? You assume you know the only acceptable answer.

Are you sure that people in HK, Singapore and Shanghai write their test in their second language? I can’t find anything about this online.

My mind kind of boggles that someone who does not know the origin of Christians like St Augustine would pronounce so confidently on the subject of Christians in the Middle East. But this goes one better. What language do you think they speak in Hong Kong? What language do you think most education is in?

The parts about abstract reasoning are subject to cultural bias, the parts about language inherently benefit native speakers and the educated, and most of the mathematical/logic reasoning flows almost directly from strong exposure to a good maths education.

So the traditional excuse-making claims.

Patents – I agree that it seems stupid not to have a good patent system, but I think it’s more complicated.

You do now. Now you have been challenged.

You need a pretty advanced legal and judicial system to enforce patents, and many countries with poor patent systems suffer from a lot of problems which are far more pressing.

Chicken and egg once more. It is amazing that the countries that the racists would claim cannot make a go of it, in fact never manage to make a go of it. It is almost as if, I don't know, they have had an astonishingly long run of bad luck.

"What language do you think they speak in Hong Kong? What language do you think most education is in?"

Hong Kong Chinese are not very proficient in English, which you would know if you have ever set foot there. The language barrier for English speakers is much higher than in Singapore or even Manila.

SMFS - Hong Kongers speak Cantonese as mother tongue, not English. I've been there three times. Their English is pretty good compared to the mainland, but not that good. In day to day stuff (directions, shopping, basic chit chat about where you're from, family, profession, etc.), I have just about as much effective communication speaking Mandarin as English.

lol@ Ricardo and Nathan thinking pointing out that Cantonese is their first language is a rebuttal.

@Careless - let us know how things go when you take an IQ test in Swedish or seek to get published in Cantonese.

I do not understand how that is relevant to the fact that you guys are trying to disagree with him by agreeing with him

SMFS suggests that they all take their tests in second or third languages. Looking back at the posts, actually I'm not sure who's arguing exactly what. My point is that you're likely to get a lower score if you take a test in your second language. Has someone devised an IQ test for speakers of each of the hundreds of African languages, or do they take tests in English and French which they are generally quite poor at? Also, I doubt that very many people in Shanghai and Hong Kong are taking tests in any language but their most proficient one - SMFS seems to suggest that they take IQ tests in English as a matter of practice.

NW,

Tends are (almost) always given in the local native language. Earlier I referred to the dismal performance of Puerto Rico's (well funded) school system. The tests (NAEP) were in Spanish.

As for

"Surprise! Poorer Eastern European countries and the Balkans, with poorer quality education systems perform less well on “intelligence” tests."

The education system of a country reflects the talents and values of the people that make up that nation. Education systems are highly endogenous. For whatever reason, the nations of Northwestern Europe have the talents and values to produce highly educated students. Poorer Eastern European countries and the Balkans generally don't.

It has little or nothing to do with money. Take a look at the PISA 2012 results (Wikipedia). Vietnam trounces Eastern Europe and the Balkans (with the predictable exception of the Baltics). Greece is only 5-10 times richer than Vietnam.

Just for fun I found the following comment on Vietnam's excellent PISA performance (from Diane Ravitch)

"What matters most today is the liberation of minds to be creative, imaginative, compassionate, and collegial. The world is in a mess and we don't need more fiercely competitive, me-first people. We need thoughtful and knowledgeable people who know how to resolve conflicts."

Beyond parody.

@Peter Schaeffer:

Tends are (almost) always given in the local native language.

Not in India. In fact, never in India. Perhaps that is part of the explanation for the low IQ estimates of that country.

The education system of a country reflects the talents and values of the people that make up that nation. Education systems are highly endogenous.

Values, yes; talents, no. If the history I read is accurate, mass education in Western Europe started with the Protestant Reformation. Nothing I have read indicates that the motivation was to let the latent talents of the peasants flower; Luther's original goal was to ensure that peasants could read the Bible and become more devout Christians. Of course, education then took a life of its own, as all education systems do. In India, there have been formal education systems for the uppermost castes (Brahmins and Kshatriyas) since antiquity, but none for the rest. That reflected the priorities of the society, and still does to a large extent in the Indian Republic.

"Surprise! Poorer Eastern European countries and the Balkans, with poorer quality education systems perform less well on “intelligence” tests."

-Serbs don't do that much poorer than Cypriots or Greeks.

I never said that kids in Shanghai take the test in their 2nd or 3rd language, SMFS said that. I'm talking about African countries. Even if Mandarin is their second language, a) as you point out most (certainly not all) dialects have a lot of similarity to Mandarin and b) all students except for Cantonese speakers take school in Mandarin.

It would be interesting to have a big sample of Chinese students and see if their tests scores systematically get worse in relation to the extent that their local dialect differs from the Beijing standard. No doubt the Chinese government has already looked into such things ...

NW,

"It would be interesting to have a big sample of Chinese students and see if their tests scores systematically get worse in relation to the extent that their local dialect differs from the Beijing standard. No doubt the Chinese government has already looked into such things …"

Fact check before you post. Take a look at "PISA 2012" (Wikipedia). The best results come from Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Macau. Strangely enough, Beijing doesn't even show up and the correlation with the Beijing dialect appears to be zero (or negative). See also "Analysis Of China’s PISA 2009 Results" (Anatoly Karlin). He has a map.of test scores. The Beijing dialect effect is notable for its absence.

The subtitle of the "Analysis Of China’s PISA 2009 Results" article is worth considering

"The world as it will be, not as we want it to be…"

Maybe love has a lot to do with proximity (ghettos) and identification (culture).

We interact more easily with people who share the same views and experiences, it’s not different with love.

The big issue with Europe is they have a hard time admitting they struggle to mingle, they’re scared to be called racist. In most cases, social dynamics “separates” ethnic groups for many reasons that cannot be called racism, it’s people looking for those who look like them.

For the record, I think interracial marriage is not a good way to assess race relations in a society, equalitarianism doesn’t have to match sexualism.

In the long term, say two or three generations, there is no better way to asses assimilation.

[Insert leftist holier than thou snark here]

I think we all understand what a wonderful path France have chosen.

The Open Borders experiment are working - just look at the way they found the 2 billion Euro on the street. Thats why everybode is talking about the french economical miracle. And about the beautiful suburbs of Paris and Marseilles.
They can even afford to have heavily armed policeforces and soldiers outside of every jewish school, in front of libraries and other attractions. Only really rich societies full of harmony will have stuff like that.

" just look at the way they found the 2 billion Euro on the street"

If you think that's impressive, just wait for Germany, the 800,000 estimate has already turned into 1.5 milion and given family reunification could reach 5 million for one calendar year! They are gonna be so rolling in money they won't know what to do!

....and if, by some crazy fluke, they aren't then that doesn't affect other open borders arguments because..... just because no data on earth can affect those!

Oh, come on. Last week the underachievement of France was caused by protectionism, welfare state and government intervention in the economy. Today, is immigrants.

Are you sure next week the rant is not going to be caused by the welfare state?

I think nothing could make people happier than integration and widespread acceptance of classic liberal values.

I have an inter racial marriage of 15 years and our kids are undefinable, as are many of their friends (we live in Singapore).

But there are other stats in France that sully the narrative. Some 70% of French prisoners are Muslim. The Economist says 40% of people in the mostly Muslim suburbs around Paris are unemployed. Anti Semitic attacks are spiraling and thousands of multi generational Jewish families are fleeing the country.

Clearly there is a cultural incompatibility at work here. The Vietnamese for example did very well.

Couldn't you define them as interracial? Not white, etc?

In South Africa, a lot of official stats are White, Black, Coloured. Not sure how black or white you have to be to not be coloured. .

I agree. Somethings fishy about these numbers. Like counting white South Africans as Sub-Saharran or Sephardics as North African. My guess is the typical "North African" married to a French native deviatespeakers in a substantial way than a random sampling off the streets of Tangiers.

""""masculine immigrants of Algerian or Moroccan"""

How many of these Algerians or Moroccans were French colonists who returned to France?

If the survey is not ridiculous, none. French colonists in North-Africa were always French, and were never considered as immigrants when they came back in France.

For that matter, Jew from Algeria were also French (décret Crémieux, end of 19th century) and are thus not considered immigrants in France, but Jews from Tunisia and Morocco are.

Your theory does not hold up with sub-Saharian immigration numbers.

The pieds noirs may have been French citizens after an interim period and francophone after an interim period, but by ancestry they were generically Mediterranean (Spanish, Italian, Maltese &c) and not typically French.

I have one more pause at integration: potential loss of "pure" culture down the line.

Maybe it would happen over a 1,000 years anyways.

and like global warming, it will happen so slowly no one will really have that much trouble adapting.

These numbers seem suspiciously high. In any case, wouldn't a better title be "French assimilation into North Africa?" When Black and White parents have children together, what color is the resulting child?

The French turned a lot of their womenfolk over to immigrants in 1940-44, too.

No, chicks dig jerks.

Ouch.

yeah, how to respond to that?

If you watch couples in the malls around Paris, you will find that these numbers are pretty much correct. French reality is much more complex than you can imagine.

Don't worry - this web site has little connection to reality as it is, much less reality with any complexity involved.

At least this site has more connection to reality than the claims of German manufacturers.

You pay attention to the trouble makers who are on the news, and while they are a big enough chunk to be disturbing, most people just go to school, find a significant other, get a job, etc. Many people are not that religious, who might have appeared more so in a society where that is emphasized.

Doesn't matter which group you want to vilify. If there are even just one million people belonging to a given group, you could give them truthful bad press every day of the year to demonstrate their evils, even if they were statistically decent. Of course, stats don't help the group in question either ...

This paragraph paints a rather simplistic vision of "integration" as it relates to "North African immigrants" to France.

First, "integration" began with French colonization of of North Africa (Algeria, 1830, Tunisia 1881 and Morocco 1904, with French influence beginning even before those dates). France had long before the immigration wave brought French colonists, language and culture to North Africa.

Second, much of the "immigration" to France in the last century from North Africa consisted of "pieds noirs" many of whom were born in North Africa but who were of Jewish and European ethnic origin (and the descendants of those former colonists of mixed lineage) who elected to return to France during and after the Algerian war of independence. It is estimated that over 800,000 pieds noirs "immigrated" to France during the 1950's and 1960's). It's not clear from this summary blurb whether this group is among those considered to have "quickly integrated".

There are no "pieds-noirs" from Sub-Saharian Africa. Your theory does not hold up.

It may hold for North African immigrants.

Please read again. My "theory" relates to North Africans. Do you have any doubt that the "assimilation" of North African immigrants into France did not start with colonialization?

Actually, they immigrated to France in one fell swoop in 1962, and the departure to various loci was exceptionally thorough. Two-thirds of the pieds noirs population of Oran (which had had a European majority) left in a matter of about four months in 1962. About 98% of that population had left Algeria by 1965.

I think the data are from here. See table on page 92, although the figures don't exactly match Todd's. Samples sizes per country range from a few dozen to a few hundred. Response rates seem to be about 75-80%, so the numbers are probably reasonably accurate.

I reported on some Danish data from Statistics Denmark on this topic a few years ago (2011). Here are some highlights:

"For male immigrants from non-Western countries, 13% have partners of Danish origin and 80% have partners from a non-Western country. For female immigrants from non-Western countries, 28% have partners of Danish origin and 68% have partners of non-Western origin. Interestingly, when it comes to descendants Western immigrants are more likely to have a partner of Danish origin than are first generation immigrants (83% and 85% for males and females respectively), whereas this pattern is actually reversed for females from non-Western countries, where descendants are less likely to have a Danish partner than are first generation immigrants (19% of females who are descendants of immigrants from non-Western countries with a partner have a partner of Danish origin, whereas the corresponding number for the first generation non-Western female immigrants is 28%.) 3 out of 5 non-Western descendants who are in a relationship are in a relationship with a non-Western immigrant and 18% of them have a partner who’s also a descendant of immigrants from a non-Western country. (all numbers above from Tabel 1.9, p.32)
*When it comes to the non-Western females who find Danish male partners, few of these women come from the major immigrant countries. Of the 19.981 female non-Western immigrants with a partner of Danish origin, females from Thailand, Philippines, Russia, China, Brazil and Ukraine make up 11.644 of them – 58%. (p.33)
*Females from Thailand and Philippines alone make up 39% of the non-Western females who have partners of Danish origin. (p.34)
*When it comes to females from Turkey, Pakistan and Iraq, only 2% of them have a partner of Danish origin. (p.34)
*97% of female Turkish immigrants with a partner have a partner of Turkish origin. 94% of Pakistani females in a relationship have a partner of Pakistani origin. (p.35)
*88% of Turkish descendants in a relationship have a partner of Turkish origin. (p.37)"

Source and further data at the link above my name.

Arranged cousin marriages for purposes of immigration fraud are a sizable problem in many European countries. The Danes pushed through some reforms a decade ago.

Inbreeding should be a huge factor in consider policies regarding Muslim immigration to Europe: Here's my 2003 article on the social impact of cousin marriage that Steven Pinker selected for his Best Science Articles of 2004 book:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cousin-marriage-conundrum/

Steve, in your article :"Similarly, as Francis Fukuyama described in his 1995 book, Trust: The Social Virtues & the Creation of Prosperity, countries such as Italy with highly loyal extended families can generate dynamic family firms. Yet, their larger corporations tend to be rife with goldbricking, corruption, and nepotism, all because their employees do not trust each other to show their highest loyalty to the firm rather than their own extended families. Arab cultures are more family-focused even than Sicily, and therefore their larger economic enterprises suffer even more."

What about the Porsche Piëch "Family" :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_family

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/the-families-at-the-center-of-the-power-struggle-at-volkswagen-a-1032210.html

And everyone knows who created the Gesellschaft zur Deutschen Volkswagens Vorbereitung company mbH, and when.1937 maybe?

Arranged marriages are neither illegal nor immigration fraud.

"According to Professor Robin Fox of Rutgers University, it is likely that 80% of all marriages in history may have been between second cousins or closer" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

Not in Western Europe, at least not since the Middle Ages. Which explains a lot of the world history since.

Successful sports teams generally develop their own players and spend carefully in free agency.

Nathan W: nuh uh lots of teams draft poorly and blow money on over-priced free agents.

It's kind of adorable in a way watching someone with essentially no understanding of how to create a compelling argument.

I fail to create a compelling argument? I'm not even trying to create a compelling argument.

In particular, I'm not trying to take black or white sides of arguments in a grey reality. Rather, I'm try to pick through all the bullshit black and bullshit white and ascertain reality's shade of grey.

Not sure I understand your sports analogy, except that it's exceedingly obvious that you place me in a camp I have no desire to belong to. Care to explain?

It's not the arranged aspect so much as it is the inbreeding aspect, and, whether you realize it or not, your citation is not a defense of the latter practice.

Cousin marriage reinforces clannishness which inhibits civil society formation and thus modern civilization. My personal hypothesis is that it also somehow biologically exacerbates aggression--martial and sexual--in males.

Cousin marriage is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, the Middle East is so perpetually barbaric and dysfunctional.

I suspect the social anthropology mavens might draw a distinction between parallel cousin marriage and cross cousin marriage. Stanley Kurtz general-audience treatment of the problems of civil society formation in the Arab world emphasized this distinction and identified the source of the problem as parallel cousin marriage and not cousin marriage in general.

I suspect the point is one of declining significance. Fertility rates have been tanking all over the Arab world and adjacent areas and only the most destitute loci (Yemen, the Sudan, Afghanistan) have people routinely producing large families. As we speak, the mean tfr for the Near East, North Africa, and Central Asia is just north of 3 children per woman per lifetime and declining (or about what it was in the U.S. ca. 1962). The number of people with an ample pool of proximate cousins (much less parallel cousins) will be 'ere long a small minority. A pair of my great grandparents were cousins. My great grandparents grew up in families which had 6 or 7 children on average and produced families with 3 children on average. There hasn't been any cousin marriage since 1889. Not enough cousins, even had anyone been inclined.

Inbreeding in the Islamic world is a couple of orders of magnitude worse than anything we've had in the West, I suspect, in centuries.* In the extreme, Pakistan and Sudan appear to have inbreeding rates in excess of 50%, making it the norm.

Source: http://www.consang.net/index.php/Summary

As to its declining significance, I hope you're right. IMO, viable civil society, much less modern democratic political forms with sustainable pluralism, is a non-starter in the region until the clan system is sufficiently broken down.

*European royalty and mostly fictitious canards leveled against Appalachia notwithstanding.

There are arranged marriages that are immigration fraud. I arrange for you to marry someone back home so that their family can then apply to come over. There might even be a payment.

For immigrants who are racially different from the host country, is it really possible to assimilate without marrying or having a partner belonging to the predominant race of the host country?

Are there historical examples of where this has worked? And, if so, what accounts for their success?

It's happened in India a lot over the centuries. Parsis and Jews being two examples. But then, Indian society has never demanded assimilation on the lines of Western ethno-national states.

And looks how well that's turned out!

It seems to me it's worked pretty well, so you'll have to say precisely what you mean. For example, Parsis have done great for themselves and a lot of good for the country. Of all the ills and drawbacks that plague Indian society, I can trace none to India's traditional model of immigration and acculturation nor to the immigrants themselves. (Please note: I am not a right-wing nut who conflates immigration and invasion, like so many people around here do. Turks, Persians, Afghans, and British invaded and conquered India, and their "assimilation", if one were to call it that, was anything but benign. For people who came peacefully and were given refuge, things turned out quite all right for both parties.)

Numbers please?

How many Parsis and Jews migrated to India?

@Beetlebum:

How many Parsis and Jews migrated to India?

I have absolutely no idea. If you can find numbers from authentic sources, please let me know. What I can find out are current numbers. According to Wikipedia, there are 69000 Parsis in India (a miniscule fraction of the population), and 5000 Jews in India (though there used to be a lot more before the creation of Israel.) Parsis have a much-lower-than-replacement birth rate, and have had so for a long time. Also, not too long ago, they were almost exclusively concentrated in Gujarat, where they must have formed a substantial part of the population at one time. Jews were concentrated in Kerala and parts of Maharashtra, and in those areas, they happened to be a significant population at one time.

I suppose you are trying to make some point about demographics and assimilation, but you'll have to elaborate.

"It seems to me it’s worked pretty well, so you’ll have to say precisely what you mean."

india's a 3rd world country where people defecate in the streets

@dsgntd_plyr:

What an original observation, genius! Now show how lack of immigrant intermarriage with the local population makes people want to defecate in the streets? (Actually, no one defecates in the streets; there aren't any toilets, or streets, in much of the countryside, so people do their business wherever they find open space.)

Not sure why people like you hang out at a libertarian blog. Stick to Stormfront!

Very easy for the children. People die off. The kids are whats left.

You should see the Herculean struggle Chinese people have to make sure their kids speak Chinese.

Now, with week-end schools and more trips back home, its possible, but its easy to meet kids who's parents were both from Taiwan and speak zero Chinese.

GAC,

I would argue that Asians were well assimilated into American society long before intermarriage rates became substantial. In some countries, the same could be said for Jews as well (in the past). High levels of assimilation combined with low levels of intermarriage.

How many Parsis and Jews are there in India?

In Europe you can look at the romani people.

How many Parsis and Jews are there in India?

Not too many. The Jewish population is almost gone; most took the aaliyah when Israel was formed. Parsis suffer the low birth-rate "curse" of every well-to-do progressive subculture on the planet, though their numbers used to be higher.

In Europe you can look at the romani people.

As the saying goes in my country, one cannot clap with one hand. Based on what I have read, the Romani don't seem to have very many endearing qualities; they seem to have an aversion to regular (bureaucratic) work, have a predisposition to anti-social behavior, and are clannish. But is it certain that such qualities are innate, as opposed to a response to the distrust and hostility expressed towards them for centuries by their European host societies? Was there a single period when they were treated generously by the locals, or regarded with friendliness? Continuous unrelenting hostility can breed paranoia and anti-social behavior in anyone. And not just hostility, it seems it was legal to kill gypsy males on sight in Germany in the 18th century, and enslave them in Romania until the 19th.

So if people are not assimilated, how much of it is the immigrants' responsibility and how much the hosts'?

I did try to make a point about demographics.

George A. Correa has a point. The two cases you mention from India doesn't change his point. Who cares about if 5000 jews are assimilated or not in a country with hundreds of millions of people.

If there were only 5000 arab immigrants in France, nobody would care.

Your point still lacks merit, though there is insufficient evidence to invalidate it.

As I mentioned earlier, there were a lot more Jews and Parsis at one time relative to the population. Plus India's population itself has quadrupled over the past century (much due to modern medicine), and before the days of widespread irrigation and industry, was likely a lot smaller.

"India" has rarely been a single country/polity. As I also mentioned earlier, Parsis and Jews were concentrated in a handful of kingdoms on the west coast of India, where their demographic footprint was a lot higher; it's not like Gujarati Parsis considered themselves free to settle in Bengal; they stayed in the domains where they originally found refuge. If all 5000 Arabs were in Provence, would the Provencals care?

1) Yes, more relative to the poopulation, but still very small numbers. Insignificant numbers.

2) Do you even consider them assimilated. If they stayed in just a few concentrated areas. If they were not free to settle in other places.

3) Provencals. Yes they would care. But a lot less than if there were 500.000.

Caste system aside, I suggest that India isn't the best point of comparison to the issues in Europe.

Reason being, that Hinduism has always been an exceedingly diverse religion. You could show up, build a shrine to bananas, write a few stories or parables that are roughly consistent with the place of bananas according to the Vedas, perhaps obtain a small following, and no one would take the least offense. I believe in this God, that God, wear these costumes, eat these cultural foods ... whatever, I don't think most Hindus really care. (obvious counterargument being the rise of Hindutva ...).

While there is still very much an outsider effect, and Hindus prefer not to marry non-Hindus, and may prefer not to do business with non-Hindus, I am altogether unaware of any imperative in any sort of Hindu text or tradition for people to assimilate or conform.

I think you misunderstood me. "not free to settle" is not an accurate description. That implies some sort of ghetto, which was not the case at all. Gujarat was like a different country back then. It is not meaningful to say that someone who settled in Gujarat was "not free" to settle in, say, Bengal, because they were not part of the same political unit at the time, so why would they even try? It's like asking why a particular sub-population in Romania didn't settle in France (both countries being part of the Roman Empire once, and part of the EU now, but were distinct countries in the interim.)

Were Parsis assimilated in Gujarat? Yes, seemingly quite well. They speak Gujarati as their mother tongue (they use old Persian as a liturgical language, I believe.) There are Parsi villages in Gujarat, though many have emptied out thanks to migration to the cities and very reduced birth rates. And the Parsis formed a sizable portion of the merchant community in Gujarat. Also, whenever empires got built (Mughals, British), they did spread around the country, as all merchants do. Similarly, Jews in Kerala and Maharashtra spoke Malayalam and Marathi respectively, and were integrated into the local economies. You need to understand that integrating into the local socio-economic fabric is all that's ever been demanded in India; not full assimilation of the Western nation state-kind; intermarriage is not demanded, neither is military service, nor is a preference for a particular cuisine or clothing, etc

So the political reality in France is that the rise of Front National is a reaction from the historic French population against the assimilation of immigrant descendants that they find too fast.

No.

Its more like a reaction to all the bad stuff that follows the immigrant.

Seeing as how it's likely this study counted pied-noirs as North African to get this wildly implausible number it's more accurate to say the former pied-noir, a plurality at least of whom supporting the FN, are responsible for this vastly over-inflated estimate,

I agree the survey is doubtful but I doubt very much they counted pied-noirs as immigrants. That's really something
no one in his right mind would do in France.

or not fast enough.

or that the assimilation is too lumpy, with some very hard bits that are now melting at all.

Imagine powdered milk, where you encounter such hard chunks while drinking it.

Even if 80% had melted correctly, you'd not enjoy the chunks.

Some people like chunks.

Care for a kebab or falafel?

So when the mixer does not mix correctly, people blame the product instead of instead of fixing the mixer...

My point is that it could be a small percentage but cause discomfort to some people, even as the majority do assimilate well.

Also its just a metaphor.

One thing to remember: Many io the North African immigrants into France already speak the language. Most of the Current Immigrants don't speak any European language.
This is a big difference.

That's a good point, but I don't think that's essential. It is not hard to learn the language in the country you live in, at least for the second generation, if only you wish to.

Yeah, Tyler. They're just as French as French can be. My God you are a horse's ass.

If only these data on assimilation were true, we would all be happy. Unfortunately, it is hard to believe them.

First it would be nice to see the original report, not a second-hand short quotation. Someone has a link? Second, there is a question of definitions. Obviously everyone in France, or anywhere, is "descendant of immigrants" of the first, second, tenth or hundredth generation. The figure given does not make any sense without saying what the
authors mean by "descendant of immigrant".

Moreover, and this is an important point, people skeptical on assimilation of Arab immigrant in France (that is, essentially anyone) note that even after several generations (2,3,4) in France, descendant of these immigrants tends not to be assimilated, and actually tends to be even less assimilated than the first generation immigrants. Now if some
son of immigrants marry a fourth generation descendant of Arab immigrants, considered for the sake of this survey as
"non-descendent of immigrant", but in practice non-assimilated, this is counted in the figure of 40% given by the survey, but hardly an example of successful assimilation.

Finally, it is certainly true that there are a non-trivial number of mariages between male Arab immigrants (or their sons)
and non-Arab French women (and much less in the other direction, as the report justly notes). During my 30 years or so of life in France, I have seen quite examples amongst my friends or people I know. Now, and this is the part where I become strongly politically incorrect (but if I can't do that on this blog, where?), it turns out that all the women
I know in this situation were before in a quite desperate situation, socially/economically and/or esthetically disadvantaged, and that after their mariage they become quite submissive to their husband and his culture/religion.
So if this is an example of assimilation, it is not in the direction most people wish. Of course, I am conscious
that the cases I know could be exceptional, but it would need a finer sociological study to really convince me that this is not the general rule.

It's 2015 and not being able to do a Google search makes me wonder why you describe women socially/economically disadvantaged as the "others". http://teo.site.ined.fr/

Axa, yes, I had found it, thanks, and I was back to post the link. Thanks. I will read it now.

Some precision on the definitions used by the survey (page 7):

- French colonists in Africa or elsewhere coing back to France after the independence are **not** considered as immigrants. This is of course logical.

- Descendent of Immigrants are defined as someone whose one of the parent at least is immigrant (born in a Foreign country and not French at birth). So descendant mean child, not grad-child. This is really problematic.
The great first vague of Arab immigration is from the 60's : people in their 20s and 30's coming to work. In 2011 (time of the survey) the people in age of getting married are not their son and daughters, but grand-sons or great-grand-sons, so presumably not considered as immigrants by the survey. This makes the figure presented by Todd and Cowen meaningless as a measure of integration of the Arab community.

So when numbers do not match your vision of reality, you question the numbers and the integrity of scientists instead of changing your vision. Of course...
Do you know that all the numbers in the study are available for free? You can run your own calculations first before posting.

Xiugad, a number doesn't make any sense without a precise definition of what it is supposed to count. The definition was not given in Tyler's post. I raised this point, as many others did, and I checked the original paper for the definitions, which I posted here. It is clear from the definitions of what is measured that these figures have no bearing on the reality of assimilation of descendants of immigrant of arabic origin in France.
If you have something to argue about that, be my guest. Otherwise, keep your false accusations (where did I question the integrity of the numbers or of scientists?) for yourself.

Men and women fall in love with each other and marry. The Marginal Revolution comments section heralds the end of days.

:(

I have a student right now whose great grandfather was a harki and fled with his wife and an infant to France in 1963, his grandfather was born in Toulon in a barracks, his father was born in Nantes, and he was born in Strasbourg, his mother is from Cannes, and he told me that his great great maternal grandmother was Italian, but he can speak Kabyle he grew up rooting for Algeria in Soccer and he and his father are both upset at his two sisters who wear hijab and one of them is such a problem that they are worried she might run away from her infidel parents. She spends all her time learning Arabic and even refuses to talk in Kabyle because it is a pagan language.

He is a fine guy but though he appears completely assimilated to France, his family is not.

As to this incredibly useless statistic and how it counts people like him and his nightmarish sister I leave to your power of deduction.

I'm not sure if these numbers are genuine, but generally I think there's an over-abundance of arguments and statistics meant to show that Syrian immigration will go smoothly, and a paucity of effort to help smooth it (or for that matter to stand up to Assad and now Putin so that people don't have to become refugees).

For now the most commendable people are guys like the Humans of New York blogger, just talking to refugees and getting their stories. But even a lot of the self-righteous types are really just trying to deflect and put out of their mind. The idea that for moral fair burden-sharing reasons refugees will be assigned to countries where they don't want to be seems particularly unlikely to go well.

Agree. I think accepting refugees is the right thing to do, statistics be damned. But I don't hear much discussion on practical matters like language education, speeding up access to the job market so they can get off the dole, access to training facilities, etc, or moreover, whether the refugees might be asked to return home after the war is over.

You don't hear about the "practical matters" because this is backdoor immigration, not refugee relief. It's obvious and transparent duplicity.

If that were true, they wouldn't have waited four years. There's nothing obvious or transparent about your point, but it makes for an interesting conspiracy theory.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

I think he has a point. Especially as many refugees are not from Syria but the Balkans.

They are not coming directly from Syria, right? So if they have already escaped Syria, they are no longer refugees. End of story. Now they are just trying to find the best country they can get into. Obviously what is happening in Syria is the only thing allowing them to get into these other countries and that is why it is happening now. If they could have created a fake war where no one really died so they could get into other countries 4 years ago I am sure many would have done that.

Cliff - someone who's been sitting in a refugee camp for months and years is still a refugee.

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. How many months and years would you sit in a refugee camp taking handouts until you got fed up and tried to find the best place to earn a living until peace returned to your country of origin?

NW,

When people fled Syria for Turkey, they were plausibly refugees. When they left Turkey for Greece, they became welfare shoppers. Under international law, various treaties, conventions. etc. people fleeing war and persecution are entitled to safety. Turkey provided safety (as did Lebanon, Jordan, etc.). Anyone taking a boat to Greece is just shopping for a more comfortable situation. They are no longer refugees and shouldn't be treated (or called) refugees.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Ethnic_groups

"Due to a law dating from 1872, the French Republic prohibits performing census by making distinction between its citizens regarding their race or their beliefs."

Hence, using "The 2008-9 survey Trajectoires et origines".

There are no reliable statistics on ethnicity or religious affiliations in France.

Remember that whenever you see a statement asserting how successful France's efforts are to increase fertility rates.
Important facts of French demographics are hidden by policies of willful blindness.

The paper cited by Wikipedia reads as follows:

"The French state is therefore generally barred from collecting data that we regard as commonplace in the United States.7 This bar was recently affirmed by the Conseil Constitutionnel, which rejected part of a bill passed by the French parliament permitting the collection of statistics reporting racial and ethnic identity for the purpose of measuring discrimination.8"

In short, the state is prohibited from collecting this kind of information. That by no means suggests that "There are no reliable statistics on ethnicity or religious affiliations in France," but rather only that reliable statistics are not collected by the French government except from third parties. Big difference.

Not really. French Census does not collect such data.

"Third parties" are limited to surveys and surveys have inherent problems:
sample size, selection bias, etc.

Naturally, no one would argue that a survey is flawless. But in order to remain consistent with your claim that there are no reliable statistics on ethnicity in France, you would have to make the claim that no survey data is reliable. That is a strong claim, if it is the one you're making. Are you indeed making this claim?

No.
I am making the claim that surveys are not statistics.
Thus: There are no reliable statistics on ethnicity or religious affiliations in France.
The point is that the standards of reliability and verification are not the same.
To paraphrase Mark Twain: there are lies, damned lies, statistics and there are surveys.

Surveys are not statistics? Then why do for-profit companies use them in determining their marketing campaigns?

Surveys are not data, is perhaps the better word. They are random samples that we hope roughly match the true population.

So who was burning and rioting in the Parisian suburbs a couple years ago?

Good question. Maybe a non-governmental "third party" should make

a survey.

Somewhere in the 120 other comments someone will say this is evidence of France assimilating into North Africa. Houellebecq wrote a novel about it. :)

But they are being assimilated in mainstream french culture, or in a kind of universal, post-racial, ghetto culture (made of gangsta rap, school undiscipline, street gangs, occasional riots)?

At least in Portugal, the sons and grandsons of African immigrants are almost absolutely disconnected from traditional African culture; but many of them have, as reference (for music, clothes, etc.), not the traditional Portuguese culture, but the Black American culture.

MM

So true and not just in Portugal. From an earlier post of mine.

“An obnoxious girl of North African descent objects to the teacher’s Eurocentric names as “Honkies, Frenchies, Frogs!””

Tino Sanandaji make a great point about the corrupting influence of American “urban” culture in Europe. Quote

“Resentment toward the West makes integration harder. Immigrants learn — and make use of — the message of victimhood, which fosters hostility toward their host society. And claiming victim status is appealing from a psychological perspective, as it confers moral superiority. Immigrants who wish to integrate and adopt a Swedish identity are accused of “acting white” or being “an Uncle Tom.” The latter is not a translation from Swedish; the American phrase “Uncle Tom” is the actual term of abuse.”

Over on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4&v=UHsXWYaTlik) you can find an interview with Tino Sanandaji. He observes that 99% of the political class in Sweden (which overtly promotes Open Borders) goes to pains to keep as far from immigrants as possible in their own lives.

The best way of understanding this is “the bubble versus the people”.

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