*Middle Kingdom & Empire of the Rising Sun*

This excellent book by June Teufel Dreyer has the subtitle Sino-Japanese Relations, Past and Present.  Here is one short bit:

Moreover, the Chinese distinction between themselves as civilized and all others as barbarians was, they [the Japanese nativists] argued, absurd, given the reality that barbarians had several times conquered China and the barbarian leader was the anointed as the son of heaven.  Who, then, should be considered barbarian?  To nativists, the logical conclusion was the Japan had become the true Middle Kingdom.  While one might reverse China’s past accomplishments, China had declined into an entity that was no longer worthy of emulation.

The book is substantive and readable throughout, essential for our time as well.

Comments

The China-Japan relationship is probably the most important relationship of the 21st century. 2nd and 3rd economy, hate each other, and are right next to each other. The US can choose to retreat from the Pacific and cede to China, Japan can't.

In what magical world can the US cede the Pacific to China? It can at most cede parts of the eastern Pacific, unless you mean that Hawaii -- practically in the centre -- can be ceded too?

Why not? What has Hawaii done for me?

A state need not have done anything for a solipsistic Brazilian cheerleader for it to continue to possess its political, constitutional and legal rights.

Hawaii is not really American (it is not even located in, you know, the AMERICAN continent), Hawaii is not really a state (it is smaller than several Brazilian cities) and, more important, it is standing in the way of the future, so it has to go. It is time for America to relinquish all colonial possessions.

One of your worst posts. By "smaller" I assume you mean in population, by which standard many states and indeed countries are smaller than many cities. It is a "colonial possession" in the same way that every other state is.

"By “smaller' I assume you mean in population, by which standard many states and indeed countries are smaller than many cities. "
I mean area. The so-called Hawaii stathood is a fraud. If Hawaii is a state, so is any Godforsaken hamlet.

"is a 'colonial possession' in the same way that every other state is."
It is a colony the American aggressor conquered the same way it conquered the Philippines. There is nothing "American" about American possessions in Oceania populated by Asians. It is a swindle and a shame.

More stupidity. Just because it's populated by Asians or Polynesian has nothing to do with whether it's American territory or not. If we wanted to conquer Brazil then Brazil would become American. However the US doesn't need such a big influx of inferior IQ people's.

"More stupidity. Just because it’s populated by Asians or Polynesian has nothing to do with whether it’s American territory or not. If we wanted to conquer Brazil then Brazil would become American. However the US doesn’t need such a big influx of inferior IQ people’s."

Brazilian IQ is not inferior. Research commissioned by the Brazilian government shows that Brazilian are higly intelligent, and international research (Pew Research Center, I think) shows that Brazilians are among the peoples who bath more frequently. Attention to personal hygiene is clearly related to intelligence. If Brazilians' IQ were low, it would have been impossible to overhaul local local infrastructure and host the greatest Pan-American Games ever, the greatest World Cup of all time and prepare Olympic Games which will live in greatness.

Evidently the American regime can conquerer whatever it can swallow (so could Hitler, Tojo and Stalin and so can Putin), but its nefarious scheme is illegitimate, utterly immoral and, at the long run, fated to fail. Again, there is not "American" about this Oceania possession. Sooner or later, Americans will have to release its prey, the same way the French could not hold on Algeria and the Portuguese could not hold on Brazil and Angola.

Yeah....cool story bro.
And hygiene has nothing to do with IQ. IQ is related to life success nothow many sshowers you take. I find it necessary to shower only twice a week most weeks and yet I'm a highly successful patent lawyer so clearly pretty high IS.

"And hygiene has nothing to do with IQ."

Yes, it has, at nation level. Intelligent populations are much more likely to follow hygienic prescriptions. I still remember a book by an English writer, I think, about soccer, and he was impressed by how often Brazilians brush their teeth.

"and yet I’m a highly successful patent lawyer so clearly pretty high IS."

American legal system is a racket whereby the strong prey on the weak.

Sooner or later, the American aggressor will be evicted from Hawaii.

Brah, you have no idea what you're talking about when you talk about the US legal system or anything for that matter. But putting that aside wouldn't the strong winning over the weak by definition mean that high IQ wins? So that proves my point.

And as far as excessive tooth brushing science is your friend brah. You do realize that all the fluoride in tooth paste causes brain rot? I basically avoid it altogether and just do a rinse with Gatorade. Probably not so bright to use too much tooth paste

"But putting that aside wouldn’t the strong winning over the weak by definition mean that high IQ wins? So that proves my point."

No, it means the cruel prey on the good and the strong prey on the weak. The American system is sacking writ large.

"And as far as excessive tooth brushing science is your friend brah. You do realize that all the fluoride in tooth paste causes brain rot? I basically avoid it altogether and just do a rinse with Gatorade. Probably not so bright to use too much tooth paste"
A real man brushes his teeth at least four times a day. Fluoride does not rot brains (although excessive consumption can be bad for the teeth-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis#Mechanism), comic books do.

After 100 years of acculturation, Hawaii is now thoroughly "American." You should try visiting there sometime and get to know the people who actually live there. They've built themselves a pretty nifty multi-ethnic soceity.

http://www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/hawaii/demographic.html

First off, only 24% of people living in Hawaii make any claim to "Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander." Most of these either claim "two more more races" or some other group, like Somoan. Only 6% consider themselves "Hawaiian"

The two largest groups are "white" and "Japanese," a group that, despite the horrible treatment of their grandparents during WW2, see themselves as very much American. In my experience, Japanese-Americans stick as fiercely to their American identity as any group in America. (They know exactly how they would be treated if they ever had to move to Japan.)

"After 100

"First off, only 24% of people living in Hawaii make any claim to 'Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander'.”

So what? It just means their country was conquered. I don't spend my days seeing lots of Brazilian Indians, our Portuguese forefathers (and their Black slaves) soon outnumbered them through extermination and immigration. There is a word for it: domination.

"They’ve built themselves a pretty nifty multi-ethnic soceity."

They are just lackeys of their American masters.

"The two largest groups are “white” and “Japanese,” a group that, despite the horrible treatment of their grandparents during WW2, see themselves as very much American. In my experience, Japanese-Americans stick as fiercely to their American identity as any group in America. They know exactly how they would be treated if they ever had to move to Japan."

This is ridiculous. The fact the Japanese at home are fascists don't make the Japanese living in Hawaii anymore American than fleeing from ISIS or Latin American death squads makes anyone American. They are just pretending (in Brazil, they used to refuse to teach Portuguesemto their children and to fool Brazilian authorities they forced them to memorize Brazil's lenght anthem, without understanding a singlenword, so Brazilian autjorities would think they were learning Portuguese-- they will betray you as soon as they have a chance). It is sad that the Japanese living in the old country are cold-hearted and won't welcome their countrymen, but it has nothing to do with America's right to keep its colonies. Again, there is nothing AMERICAN about a colonial possession in Oceania, and there is nothing of a state in a colony smaller than Brazilian cities. It has nothing to do with the United STATES of AMERICA whatsoever. It is a farse, a swindle, a lie, a fantasy.

Sooner or later, America will be made disgorge its colonies.

From the historical perspective, I doubt the possibility of the US choosing to cede the Pacific to any Asian power without any compensation. Remember Pearl Harbor!!

"Eh we'll let China be the regional hegemon of East AND Southeast Asia. I'm sure that with that status they'll never be able to come challenge me in my region."

The 21st century is just starting. The India-China relationship is likely to be the most important linkage (or fault-line) of the 21 century. After India-China comes India-Pakistan, China-Russia, and possibly China-Indonesia. China and Japan have a fraught history. However, China has 10 times as many people as Japan.

Well said

Sorry that was for Internal Struggler 1:22AM

So the book is 'essential for our time' but not self-recommending?

The story about Chinese exceptionalism always seemed to lack modern support.

"While one might reverse China’s past accomplishments, China had declined into an entity that was no longer worthy of emulation." This sentence would make more sense if "reverse" became "revere."

I am tempted to purchase -- does it include extended discussion of the Ming refugees, Koxinga, etc. at the fall of the Ming and the accession of the Qing dynasty? Always wanted to know a bit more about that period. I can only imagine there must have been diplomatic contacts between Ming/Qing and the Shogunate with regard to Korea as well, since Ming armies had just expelled Japan from Korea in the Imjin war a generation earlier. That would be interesting to read about too.

I wouldn't recommend this book then if those are your interests. Despite the exponential hyperbole of a thousand year old rivalry, contemporary Chinese and Japanese political enmity really only date from the Koizumi administration onwards and it's historical grounding is entirely early 20th century. The Imjin war was irrelevant because both participants were overthrown shortly afterwards. The Toyotomi clan lost power a mere 2 years afterwards the war and the Zhu less than 50 years later. Neither Tokugawa nor the Manchu even participated in the war. Teufels pop history may satisfy those who know nothing about the subject matter, but really for anyone more familiar with the topic the book is going to be a rundown focused on the 19th and 20th century.

English language writing on the subjects you are interested in is nigh nonexistent. However there are a few first hand historical accounts that have been translated however of the period. A Korean War captive in Japan by Kang hang translated by Ja Hyun Kim Haboush is a good start and also the Book of Corrections translated by Choi Byong Hyun.

Thanks, well, won't be buying this then. Somewhat disappointing that a purported history of relations between Japan and China starting from the 7th century is really just a 20th century primer. Book of Corrections looks interesting, so I have bought that instead.

It is somewhat remarkable how little of the literature of East Asia has ever been translated into English, particularly Confucian literature. Notwithstanding the hundreds of translations of the Dao De Jing or the Great Learning, I think there's maybe only one or two translations of the 禮記, and only some old 19th century translations of the 儀禮 and the 周禮. And with Neo-confucianism, despite its historical importance, there's basically nothing in the popular press. I think there's only one English translation (academic) of 朱子家禮 . . . I was about to say it is long out of print but actually, it looks like it was finally reprinted in 2014! Well, that is something I suppose.

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